Berlin Airlift, IFR

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message
ups.com...

Anybody know what type of instrument approaches were used to fly the
airlift into Berlin in the 40s?



GCA



It wasn't PAR?

Sam Spade wrote in news:l1Qzh.11876$c%2.1737
@newsfe12.phx:


It wasn't PAR?

In those days, it was GCA

--

"John Godwin" wrote in message
. 3.50...

In those days, it was GCA


It still is.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:19:44 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"John Godwin" wrote in message
.3.50...

In those days, it was GCA


It still is.


GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:19:44 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"John Godwin" wrote in message
8.3.50...

In those days, it was GCA


It still is.



GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.

That is today's definition. During the Berlin Airlift GCA meant
azimuth, range, and elevation radars.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.


Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum
altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to
minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed
terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.


A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.


Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum
altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to
minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed
terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Don't feel too bad Ed, Stevie's just splitting hairs again.

From an FAA controller's standpoint recommended altitudes on ASR approaches
are only provided on pilot request (see FAAO 7110.65 5-11-1).

However IIRC, either AFR 60-5 or AFCSR 60-5 required USAF final controllers
to provide them all the time even without a specific request so a USAF stick
actuator would seldom (if ever) have a need to split that particular hair.

On Feb 12, 5:57 pm, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"



wrote:

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A
GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air
Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using
recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown)

Both ASR and PAR are GCA.

A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum
altitudes.

Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum
altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to
minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed
terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad.


Our controller terminology was "X miles from runway" and "descend to
your minimum descent altitude". The controller provided course
trending information and the pilot was expected to maintain separation
from terrain. Recommended altitudes could be provided on final
approach if the pilot requested. The armed services may/may not have
slightly different methods on altitude information.

One other difference between a PAR approach and an ASR approach is
that in the PAR approach the distances as given are from touchdown,
and in the ASR approach distances are from the runway.

John Hairell

On Feb 11, 9:35 pm, John Godwin wrote:
Sam Spade wrote in news:l1Qzh.11876$c%2.1737
@newsfe12.phx:



It wasn't PAR?

In those days, it was GCA

--


Please explain the difference between GCA and PAR.......


John Hairell )
former GCA/PAR controller