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Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-))
So, let me get this straight: You're saying that Spanish is *not* a foreign language in the United States, simply because a large portion of people here are originally from Spanish-speaking countries? By that definition, German is not a foreign language in Iowa and Wisconsin. Neither is Italian. Or Irish. Or have you come up with some intellectually gymnastic limitation on your theory, like "it's only not a foreign language if the speakers have not been here more than 'x' generations..."? Honestly, you guys are hilarious! -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
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On Feb 14, 10:46 am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-)) So, let me get this straight: You're saying that Spanish is *not* a foreign language in the United States, simply because a large portion of people here are originally from Spanish-speaking countries? By that definition, German is not a foreign language in Iowa and Wisconsin. Neither is Italian. Or Irish. Or have you come up with some intellectually gymnastic limitation on your theory, like "it's only not a foreign language if the speakers have not been here more than 'x' generations..."? Honestly, you guys are hilarious! -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" and russian is still a foreign language in parts of NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc. (you may get more done in brooklyn speaking russian than english, but nobody is trying to have everything in russian...) |
#3
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In article om,
"Jay Honeck" wrote: Hamish (for whom American English is definitely foreign :-)) So, let me get this straight: You're saying that Spanish is *not* a foreign language in the United States, simply because a large portion of people here are originally from Spanish-speaking countries? I'm not saying anything of the sort (forgive me for asking, but is English is a foreign language for you? That might explain a few things about this exchange...). Let's review your stance. You've said that one of the indigenous native languages of the United States -- Lakota -- is a foreign language in the US. You've claimed that Spanish, the native (first, and, in some cases, only) language for millions of natural-born citizens in this country, a language whose native use predates that of English in large parts of the US, and whose history in many parts of this country as a first language is long and unbroken, is a foreign language in the US. So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"? Do you mean "not the official language"? If so, why not say so (while keeping in mind that the US doesn't have an official language in the same sense that, say, France does, or the Soviet Union did)? Do you mean "language spoken by foreigners or immigrants?" If so, why not say so (while bearing in mind that I'm both a foreigner and an immigrant here, and since English is my native language, by those rules that would make English a foreign language here...)? Do you mean "dominant language"? If so, why not say so (but does that mean you believe that Scots Gaelic is a foreign language in the United Kingdom, or that the hundreds of Aboriginal languages in Australia are foreign languages there)? As a native English speaker and a long-time resident of the United States, your usage baffles me -- maybe you can spell out precisely what makes a language "foreign" in your mind, and how your definition compares to more traditional, conservative definitions that talk in terms of (for example) languages not spoken by the indigenous people of a certain place. By that definition, German is not a foreign language in Iowa and Wisconsin. Neither is Italian. Or Irish. If you say so (I certainly haven't said so). Or have you come up with some intellectually gymnastic limitation on your theory, like "it's only not a foreign language if the speakers have not been here more than 'x' generations..."? The gymnastics seem to be yours -- but again, before I get too impolite about your reading skills, is English perhaps a foreign language for you? That might excuse your strawman argument in the paragraph immediately above. Honestly, you guys are hilarious! Well, I wouldn't laugh too hard -- the joke seems to be on the person who believes that a country's indigenous languages are somehow foreign in that country... Hamish |
#4
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So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"?
My apologies. You have gone to extreme lengths to explain your ignorance of the situation, thanks. I didn't realize that the concept of a "foreign language" needed to be defined, but here goes: A "foreign language" in the context of the United States of America (and in the context of this discussion) is a language that is not spoken by the majority of people since the country's inception. Since every major founding document, every major newspaper, and (to bring this discussion into the 21st century) every major American website was/is published in English, we consider every language other than English to be "foreign". For further clarification, please refer to the definition of the word "foreign", available in any of the free on-line dictionaries. Your example of such indigenous languages as Lakota and Spanish are not relevant to this discussion, as they pre-date the creation of the United States. They were never considered to be official languages of the United States, and may therefore be defined as "foreign", both in fact and in the context of this discussion. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#5
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A "foreign language" in the context of the United States of America
(and in the context of this discussion) is a language that is not spoken by the majority of people since the country's inception. Fair enough. (Note - this isn't the only reasonable definition, but I'll use it in this context) Since every major founding document, every major newspaper, and (to bring this discussion into the 21st century) every major American website was/is published in English, we consider every language other than English to be "foreign". 1: =You= consider... not =We= consider... 2: The statement does =not= follow, in any case, from the definition you gave above, which does not refer to founding documents or websites. It refers to "not spoken by the majority...". I'm sure you can recall examples of countries where the language of official documents is different from the language commonly spoken by the majority of the population. In fact, early England comes to mind. Your example of such indigenous languages as Lakota and Spanish It wasn't my example. They were never considered to be official languages of the United States, and may therefore be defined as "foreign", both in fact and in the context of this discussion. Again, this does not follow from the definition you gave above, which does not refer to official languages, only to "not spoken by the majority..." (which, btw, leaves open the question of whether "not spoken" means "not commonly spoken" or "not able to be spoken") You get to define the words, but then it is upon you to use those words according to your own definition. Jose -- Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully understands this holds the world in his hands. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#6
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Jose wrote:
1: =You= consider... not =We= consider... Who is this "we"... you have a frog in your pocket? |
#7
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In article .com,
"Jay Honeck" wrote: So what *do* you mean by "foreign language"? My apologies. You have gone to extreme lengths to explain your ignorance of the situation, thanks. I didn't realize that the concept of a "foreign language" needed to be defined, but here goes: Well, one of use is surely unclear on the definition... A "foreign language" in the context of the United States of America (and in the context of this discussion) is a language that is not spoken by the majority of people since the country's inception. So after all this you really *do* just mean "non-majority" language when you say "foreign language". OK... Since every major founding document, every major newspaper, and (to bring this discussion into the 21st century) every major American website was/is published in English, we consider every language other than English to be "foreign". This would be the royal "we", right? Or do you presume to speak for all America, Federal Government included (the US government doesn't, as it happens, agree with your definition of "foreign language", but never mind, I'm sure it's the thought that counts, right? Rigour never matters when language is involved, right?). (And the idea that "every major American website was / is published in English" is funnier than you'll ever know, for reasons I'm guessing you'll never know (let's just say I'm in the biz...). Or are we encountering a "no true Scotsman" argument from you here?) For further clarification, please refer to the definition of the word "foreign", available in any of the free on-line dictionaries. I have. I even -- twice -- quoted you the definition of "foreign language" from one of your "free on-line dictionaries". Since you don't agree with your own sources, this isn't aimed at you, but if anyone's still playing along out there, a good place to start calling Jay's bluff is http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/foreign. Your example of such indigenous languages as Lakota and Spanish are not relevant to this discussion, as they pre-date the creation of the United States. They were never considered to be official languages of the United States, and may therefore be defined as "foreign", both in fact and in the context of this discussion. English predates the official creation of the United States, too, oddly enough. Can you tell me what *the* official language(s) of the United States is (are) "in fact"? Where is it defined as official? Can you tell me in which significant part of this country Spanish is the official language? Is English a foreign language there? Anyway, I hereby give up. If you want to call the native languages of a country "foreign" languages in the countries of their origin, that's OK, just expect to be badly misunderstood in the world beyond the flyover states (unless, of course, you're using "foreign" as one of those dog whistle words...). I don't expect you to care one way or another what the wider population of the United States thinks (in fact something tells me you'd be proud of the fact that they disagree), but your basic ignorance of that wider United States rubs someone like me -- a fiscal conservative who might otherwise bristle at the idea of spending *my* tax dollars on unnecessary weather products -- very much the wrong way. Over and out. Hamish |
#8
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English predates the official creation of the United States, too, oddly
enough. Can you tell me what *the* official language(s) of the United States is (are) "in fact"? Where is it defined as official? Can you tell me in which significant part of this country Spanish is the official language? Is English a foreign language there? It is indeed rare to find someone who is both eloquent and ignorantly obstinate -- but you seem to fill both bills. I don't think I've ever seen anyone work so hard to try to disprove the well-accepted (for 225 years!) fact that English is the de facto "official language" of the United States. The reason it has never been put in writing is because its predominance was so painfully obvious to all concerned that codifying it seemed unnecessary. That situation has recently changed, with the rise of misguided souls who seem to believe that it is the U.S. taxpayer's sworn duty to translate every official document and website into every language (AKA: "foreign" ones), rather than raising the bar the *tiny* amount it would take to require English language skills of our citizens. Your moral relativism with regard to this issue provides the perfect explanation for the growing movement to have English declared the "official language" in so many U.S. states today. But believe what you wish. Just don't try living and working in the vast majority of America without learning English, or you will learn what economic marginalization is all about. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#9
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Jay Honeck wrote:
That situation has recently changed, with the rise of misguided souls who seem to believe that it is the U.S. taxpayer's sworn duty to translate every official document and website into every language (AKA: "foreign" ones), rather than raising the bar the *tiny* amount it would take to require English language skills of our citizens. Your moral relativism with regard to this issue provides the perfect explanation for the growing movement to have English declared the "official language" in so many U.S. states today. Well stated Jay. It is exactly this new 'relativism'... this new striving to be politically CORRECT to the extreme that that is slowly but inexorably taking apart the integrity of this country fiber by fiber. This mis-guided hell bent attempt to get the rest of the world to like us is really netting less and less respect. But who cares, its more important to be 'stroked' by the media than actually stand for anything. |
#10
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Jay Honeck wrote:
That situation has recently changed, with the rise of misguided souls who seem to believe that it is the U.S. taxpayer's sworn duty to translate every official document and website into every language (AKA: "foreign" ones), rather than raising the bar the *tiny* amount it would take to require English language skills of our citizens. I guess this is going to be another point where we will disagree :-) it is not however a matter of 'moral relativism', but of different background; I know, albeit indirectly, what forced integration looks like, and it isn't pretty (horror stories from my late grand dad, the french were quite brutal in their way of spreading the 'One True Culture/Language (tm)' -- which makes it all the more ironic when you hear them whine today about anglo-saxon cultural imperialism, but I digress); since we are way off topic wise, anyone could suggest a good Spanish language course in Santa Clara county? my high-school Spanish is quite a bit rusted and I wouldn't mind getting back to learning it. --Sylvain |
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