Realistic Instrument Training using MSFS 2004

How would you know? You happen to be correct in the staqtement below,
but the generalization you made prior was silly. Visual cues are
different in IMC and VFR.


The manipulation of controls required to fly the plane is identical for both
IFR and VFR.

Tim writes:

How would you know?

It's so self-evident that I'm surprised you ask the question.

Why would the controls of an airplane behave _differently_ just because of
changing visibility outside the cockpit? It's the same atmosphere, the same
control surfaces, the same airframe, the same powerplants ... obviously they
will operate exactly the same in both VMC and IMC. One need not be a genius
to figure this out, and certainly one need not be a pilot (although it appears
that some pilots _haven't_ figured it out).

You happen to be correct in the staqtement below,
but the generalization you made prior was silly. Visual cues are
different in IMC and VFR.

There are no visual cues in IMC.

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Mxsmanic wrote:

Tim writes:


How would you know?


It's so self-evident that I'm surprised you ask the question.

Why would the controls of an airplane behave _differently_ just because of
changing visibility outside the cockpit? It's the same atmosphere, the same
control surfaces, the same airframe, the same powerplants ... obviously they
will operate exactly the same in both VMC and IMC. One need not be a genius
to figure this out, and certainly one need not be a pilot (although it appears
that some pilots _haven't_ figured it out).


You happen to be correct in the staqtement below,
but the generalization you made prior was silly. Visual cues are
different in IMC and VFR.


There are no visual cues in IMC.


The controls don't behave differently (unless the airframe is iced up),
but you are neglecting the fact that the pilot is part of the control
loop. In VMC the input to the pilot is far different, with considerably
more information and lots of subtle cues than it is when in IMC. In
IMC, the total input to the pilot is through a few instruments.
Peripheral vision won't help you keep the wings level like it does in
VMC. Because there is much less information available to the pilot, and
his sense of balance can betray that information, it is far more
difficult to maintain the control of an aircraft without the visual cues
you get in VMC. This isn't about basic aircraft control, it is learning
to correctly interpret the instruments to replace the visual cues.
Furthermore, it takes a certain degree of concentration as well as
practice to do it. Now add in turbulent air, having to navigate, having
to set up for an approach, and talking with ATC. Unless you are
proficient on interpreting the instruments, you won't be able to
simultaneously keep control of the aircraft and also accomplish those
peripheral tasks without relying on an autopilot. COnsider the average
lifespan of a non-instrument rated pilot in an inadvertent IMC
encounter. There were studies done where the average time from entry
into IMC to a non-recoverable graveyard spin for non-instrument rated
pilots come out to something like 180 seconds.

I suspect when you are flying your MSFS you are relying more on the
instruments than a real pilot does in VMC, because simply put you don't
have the visual cues on a 2D screen that you get when sitting in a real
cockpit. You are most likely compensating by using the instruments more
than you would in a real airplane, probably without even realizing it.
As a result, when you go IMC on the sim, it isn't as big a shift for you
as it is for a pilot in a real airplane. Try this: cover up or turn off
the instrument display while flying VMC on the computer. See how well
you fare compared to when the instruments are there. Now try flying
into a simulated cloud with the instruments still covered. Tell me how
long you last before you hit the ground.

Ray Andraka writes:

The controls don't behave differently (unless the airframe is iced up),
but you are neglecting the fact that the pilot is part of the control
loop.

No, the pilot is independent of both the controls and the instruments. He is
the interface between the two domains, not part of them.

In VMC the input to the pilot is far different, with considerably
more information and lots of subtle cues than it is when in IMC. In
IMC, the total input to the pilot is through a few instruments.

Yes.

Peripheral vision won't help you keep the wings level like it does in
VMC. Because there is much less information available to the pilot, and
his sense of balance can betray that information, it is far more
difficult to maintain the control of an aircraft without the visual cues
you get in VMC.

It is far more difficult for the pilot to decide what control inputs to make.
The control inputs themselves are the same.

This isn't about basic aircraft control, it is learning
to correctly interpret the instruments to replace the visual cues.

Yes.

I suspect when you are flying your MSFS you are relying more on the
instruments than a real pilot does in VMC, because simply put you don't
have the visual cues on a 2D screen that you get when sitting in a real
cockpit.

Agreed.

You are most likely compensating by using the instruments more
than you would in a real airplane, probably without even realizing it.

Probably.

As a result, when you go IMC on the sim, it isn't as big a shift for you
as it is for a pilot in a real airplane.

That depends on what the pilot of the real airplane is accustomed to. Some
real pilots might well be instrument oriented, too, especially if they fly
large aircraft (and particularly if they have learned to fly _only_ large
aircraft, which is difficult in the U.S. but not out of the realm of
possibility in other countries).

Try this: cover up or turn off
the instrument display while flying VMC on the computer. See how well
you fare compared to when the instruments are there. Now try flying
into a simulated cloud with the instruments still covered. Tell me how
long you last before you hit the ground.

Hmm ... interesting. I'll try it.

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Mxsmanic wrote:
Ray Andraka writes:

The controls don't behave differently (unless the airframe is iced up),
but you are neglecting the fact that the pilot is part of the control
loop.

No, the pilot is independent of both the controls and the instruments. He is
the interface between the two domains, not part of them.

That phrase is a very original way of restating that "the pilot is
part of the control loop". Ray did not say that the pilot is "part of
the controls", or "part of the instruments" ...

Time to increase the population of my killfile...

Roberto Waltman

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There are no visual cues in IMC.

Like Hell there aren't!

Peter Dohm writes:

Like Hell there aren't!

Which visual cues do you have in IMC?

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Mxsmanic,

There are no visual cues in IMC.


Yeah, right. That's why it's called blind flying, right?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Feb 15, 8:55 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
There are no visual cues in IMC.

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Oh, for God's sake, have you any sense at all of how wrong you are, of
how ignorate you continue to demonstrate yourself to be?