Question For Old Naval Aviators

Bill -

I was just an enlisted back seater but...

"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.

Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)

I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.

Regards,

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:14:06 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:10:05 GMT, "Flashnews"
wrote:

If the airwing was sent ashore and the deck left reasonably empty the C-1
COD's often deck landed and deck departed while the carriers were in port so
the arresting crews did not have to be mobilized from liberty. Leaving one
or two wires working just made things smoother but a shift had to work. In
all this enabled the ships crew to cycle, the mail to be delivered, the ship
to be on a liberty schedule, and the staff pukes to get their flight time.

What kind of weight did a C-1 fly at?

I just looked at my S-2D/E/G NATOPS. At 23,000 lb., standard day,
zero headwind, takeoff roll was just under 1000', so a deck run at
anchor might be possible (but would be interesting). The same
aircraft on a 99 kt. approach (full flaps), 90 kt. touchdown would
have a landing roll of almost 2500 ft. That would seem to preclude
non-arrested landings at anchor.

Of course if the COD were substantially lighter the take off run would
be less. And a lighter weight would mean a lower landing speed.
Making a fast "interpolation" taking the weight to 19,000 lbs. cuts
the distance to about 2100 ft. To get under 1000' requires between
35-40 kts. of headwind.

To get 1000 feet or follout you'd have to land a wheels length ahead
of the rounddown. I don't think, even then, a 27C had the deck length
to do it; maybe a FORESTAL did.

While the S-2 is probably "dirtier" than a C-1 I wonder if it would
make that much difference at low speeds.

And even under the best of circumstance God forbid you have a problem.

Bill Kambic, former Stoof IP

Veteran: VT-28, VS-27, VS-30, VS-73
Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:

Bill -

I was just an enlisted back seater but...

"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.

The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.

Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)

We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.

I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.

I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:

Bill -

I was just an enlisted back seater but...

"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.

The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.

Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)

We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.

I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.

I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:22:32 -0500, "Flashnews"
wrote:

I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right

IF you've that much wind then you might pull it off. But you'd best
make you peace with God of All Brakes before you try it!!!!! :-)

The "Book" says 90 kts. at the ramp so that would do it.

"Innovative" and "not leaving much margin for error" are poor
synonyms! ;-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

remember this was an "inport" thing not regular ops and the mission was a
bag of mail and flight time for the AirBoss and prifly crew

we also did many crazy things like no-flap takeoffs with the clean Phantoms
(Ed must have done these more then I but we had true hard wings with the
B/N/J's) just because it enabled a better and tighter section takeoff and at
El Toro or Miramar you could launch two sections on the duals and be
airborne & joined with four in nothing flat - but loaded for a real war,
that would not happen; now the F-8 guys who would launch with their wings
folded - that took balls (no just kidding)



wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:22:32 -0500, "Flashnews"
wrote:

I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still
remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also
remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right

IF you've that much wind then you might pull it off. But you'd best
make you peace with God of All Brakes before you try it!!!!! :-)

The "Book" says 90 kts. at the ramp so that would do it.

"Innovative" and "not leaving much margin for error" are poor
synonyms! ;-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:33:46 GMT, "Flashnews"
wrote:

remember this was an "inport" thing not regular ops and the mission was a
bag of mail and flight time for the AirBoss and prifly crew

The "smoking hole" (or big "SPLASH") is no respecter of status! :-)

we also did many crazy things like no-flap takeoffs with the clean Phantoms
(Ed must have done these more then I but we had true hard wings with the
B/N/J's) just because it enabled a better and tighter section takeoff and at
El Toro or Miramar you could launch two sections on the duals and be
airborne & joined with four in nothing flat - but loaded for a real war,
that would not happen; now the F-8 guys who would launch with their wings
folded - that took balls (no just kidding)

Taking off with wings folded IS considered bad form (even for F-8
guys)! ;-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

On Feb 25, 5:22 pm, "Flashnews" wrote:
I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right

I was on the Indy just before that period and there was NO WAY an F-4
could 'flanchor', not enough wind to shoot the thing while anchored,
and with a max engaging speed of(geeez, don't remember) but the wind
would have to be screaming to land an F-4 at anchor. . Only A/C I ever
saw fly at anchorwere S-3s.

BTW-80% Topgun grads? I don't think so. With each squadron getting
maybe 2 pilot slots per year....besides, Topgun doesn't necessarily
make you good around the boat.

wrote in message

...

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:

Bill -

I was just an enlisted back seater but...

"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.

The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.

Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)

We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.

I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.

I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 25, 5:22 pm, "Flashnews" wrote:
I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still
remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also
remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right

I was on the Indy just before that period and there was NO WAY an F-4
could 'flanchor', not enough wind to shoot the thing while anchored,
and with a max engaging speed of(geeez, don't remember) but the wind
would have to be screaming to land an F-4 at anchor. . Only A/C I ever
saw fly at anchorwere S-3s.

BTW-80% Topgun grads? I don't think so. With each squadron getting
maybe 2 pilot slots per year....besides, Topgun doesn't necessarily
make you good around the boat.

wrote in message

...

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:

Bill -

I was just an enlisted back seater but...

"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.

The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.

Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)

We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.

I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.

I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


Au contraire, mon ami. The Saratoga launched many (10 for the first launch
sequence) aircraft while at anchor off Piraeus in August 1971. Carrier was
bow on to the Acropolis up on the hill. I was there in VF103. See ADM Paul
Gilchrist's book "Feet Wet" for a complete description. He was CAG at the
time. The ship took on a lot of water in the #3 Main Machinery Room and was
listing badly. After pumping out a lot of water they needed to launch
aircraft to lighten the load and redistribute the load.

On Feb 28, 9:02 pm, "theref" wrote:
"qui si parla Campagnolo" wrote in ooglegroups.com...
On Feb 25, 5:22 pm, "Flashnews" wrote:

I am thinking about this really hard - and my failing memory still
remembers
being so amazed at a full stop landing without a hook and there was wind
over the deck - perhaps that was the deciding factor for hook / no-hook.
Now we also anchored at Kithira where the wind was always 30 to 40 knots
over the deck and we could cycle fighters all day without steaming and fly
clean for ACM missions over the ship. Again the CAG (CVW-17 1982-83) was
very innovative and we did a lot of fun things with squadrons that were
almost 80% TOPGUN graduates (VMFA-531 and VF-11). The COD rides were just
something to try as with the helicopters, A-5's, and A-6's. I also
remember
coming over the ramp at around 90 knots - does that sound right

I was on the Indy just before that period and there was NO WAY an F-4
could 'flanchor', not enough wind to shoot the thing while anchored,
and with a max engaging speed of(geeez, don't remember) but the wind
would have to be screaming to land an F-4 at anchor. . Only A/C I ever
saw fly at anchorwere S-3s.

BTW-80% Topgun grads? I don't think so. With each squadron getting
maybe 2 pilot slots per year....besides, Topgun doesn't necessarily
make you good around the boat.





wrote in message

.. .

On Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:02:45 -0600, Charlie Wolf
wrote:

Bill -

I was just an enlisted back seater but...

"deck landings" without arresting wires were non-existent, but as I
said, they were possible with enough wind over the deck.

The "Book" agrees. If you have 35-40 kts. of head wind it's possible
on a CVA. Sounds like a "high pucker factor" operation, though.

Deck runs (takeoffs) were extremely common place. with moderate wind
over the deck on a deck like Enterprise or Ranger, C-1's could take
off on the angle fully loaded - with no cat. (And no problem)

We deck ran in TS-2A/B/C during CARQUALS at VT-28 aboard INDEPENDANCE.
No big deal.

I don't recall max takeoff weight. One thing to consider also -- our
runs to Da Nang were relatively short. we rarely took on fuel on the
boat.

I was hoping somebody had a C-1 NATOPS. So far "no joy." :-)

Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

Au contraire, mon ami. The Saratoga launched many (10 for the first launch
sequence) aircraft while at anchor off Piraeus in August 1971. Carrier was
bow on to the Acropolis up on the hill. I was there in VF103. See ADM Paul
Gilchrist's book "Feet Wet" for a complete description. He was CAG at the
time. The ship took on a lot of water in the #3 Main Machinery Room and was
listing badly. After pumping out a lot of water they needed to launch
aircraft to lighten the load and redistribute the load.

Well, shuck my corn..heard of the Sara 'sinkex', but never heard they
shot Phantoms at anchor. They must have been very light and it must've
been quite a shot.