Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !

"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emperor_(D98)

http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm

One of the photographs here clearly shows a Hellcat with invasion stripes,
although the carrier was engaged on Operation DRAGOON at the time.


The presence of invasion stripes does not indicate an aircraft participated
in the D-Day landings, it just indicates it operated over western Europe on
June 6 1944 or later.


http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emperor_(D98)

http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm

One of the photographs here clearly shows a Hellcat with invasion
stripes, although the carrier was engaged on Operation DRAGOON at
the time.

The presence of invasion stripes does not indicate an aircraft
participated in the D-Day landings, it just indicates it operated
over western Europe on June 6 1944 or later.

Agreed. However we have two documents that mention Ermperor's service during
the D-Day landings. One document states that Emperor "served on
anti-submarine detail during Operation Overlord". The other states she
"served as an ASW patrol ship at Normandy".

The same two documents also claim that Emperor took part in Operations
TUNGSTEN and DRAGOON. TUNGSTEN preceded OVERLORD, DRAGOON was after it. Both
TUNGSTEN and DRAGOON involved the use of Hellcats from Emperor. It doesn't
seem likely that the Hellcats were removed from Emperor before D-Day and
replaced with some other naval fighter, only to be returned to the ship
immediately afterwards.

My statement, which you questioned, was "Emperor provided aircraft for the
anti-submarine screen during the D-Day landings, again with Hellcats as
fighter cover", which seems pretty much supported by those two documents.


--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...

Agreed. However we have two documents that mention Ermperor's service
during the D-Day landings. One document states that Emperor "served on
anti-submarine detail during Operation Overlord". The other states she
"served as an ASW patrol ship at Normandy".


I have no problem with the first one, I believe the second document is in
error. HMS Emperor does not appear among the list of ships participating in
Operation NEPTUNE, the naval side of OVERLORD. HMS Emperor may very well
have been engaged in ASW operations during the invasion, but if those
operations aren't considered direct support of NEPTUNE they can't be
considered direct support of the Normandy invasion.

The Royal Navy archive site does not mention Normandy or OVERLORD in it's
history of HMS Emperor.

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm



The same two documents also claim that Emperor took part in Operations
TUNGSTEN and DRAGOON. TUNGSTEN preceded OVERLORD, DRAGOON
was after it. Both TUNGSTEN and DRAGOON involved the use of Hellcats from
Emperor. It doesn't seem likely that the Hellcats were removed from
Emperor before
D-Day and replaced with some other naval fighter, only to be returned to
the ship immediately afterwards.


Agreed, and since there's no mention of participation in the Normandy
invasion in the history of 800 Squadron it seems likely that HMS Emperor did
not participate in that action.

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/800.htm



My statement, which you questioned, was "Emperor provided aircraft for the
anti-submarine screen during the D-Day landings, again with Hellcats as
fighter cover", which seems pretty much supported by those two documents.


Only by one of them, which appears to be in error.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emperor_(D98)

http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm

One of the photographs here clearly shows a Hellcat with invasion stripes,
although the carrier was engaged on Operation DRAGOON at the time.


The presence of invasion stripes does not indicate an aircraft participated
in the D-Day landings, it just indicates it operated over western Europe on
June 6 1944 or later.


http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4




From http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm comes this quote:

HMS Emperor was outfitted as a strike/CAP carrier. Provided fighter cover for a strike on German battleship Tirpitz;

served as an ASW patrol ship at Normandy and supported invasion of southern France before transferring to the Pacific.

which does support Enzo's statement that the ship was at Normandy on D-Day.

--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

Paul Elliot wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Emperor_(D98)

http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm

One of the photographs here clearly shows a Hellcat with invasion
stripes, although the carrier was engaged on Operation DRAGOON at
the time.

The presence of invasion stripes does not indicate an aircraft
participated in the D-Day landings, it just indicates it operated over
western
Europe on June 6 1944 or later.


http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4




From http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm comes this quote:

HMS Emperor was outfitted as a strike/CAP carrier. Provided fighter
cover for a strike on German battleship Tirpitz;

served as an ASW patrol ship at Normandy and supported invasion of
southern France before transferring to the Pacific.

which does support Enzo's statement that the ship was at Normandy on
D-Day.

Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The Hellcat
Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944".

It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very
potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It may
be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It is
possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter cover for
the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the English Channel
itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach
head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but
they did *support* it.

--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

"Enzo Matrix" skrev i en meddelelse
...
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4

From http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm comes this quote:

HMS Emperor was outfitted as a strike/CAP carrier. Provided fighter
cover for a strike on German battleship Tirpitz;

served as an ASW patrol ship at Normandy and supported invasion of
southern France before transferring to the Pacific.

which does support Enzo's statement that the ship was at Normandy on
D-Day.

Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The
Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944".

It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very
potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It
may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It
is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter
cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the
English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over
the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in
the invasion, but they did *support* it.

Grasping at straws now? ;-)

It did participate, as did all other that served on that day in any
capacity; and the original question was whether the paintscheme was
correct - It was!

Blume, Alf wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" skrev i en meddelelse
...
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4

From http://www.navsource.org/archives/03/034.htm comes this quote:

HMS Emperor was outfitted as a strike/CAP carrier. Provided fighter
cover for a strike on German battleship Tirpitz;

served as an ASW patrol ship at Normandy and supported invasion of
southern France before transferring to the Pacific.

which does support Enzo's statement that the ship was at Normandy on
D-Day.

Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The
Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June
1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron
of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of
the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can
*both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were
directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in the
Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so did not
actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head. Therefore,
they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but they did
*support* it.

Grasping at straws now? ;-)

LOL As always.

--
Enzo

I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.

"Blume, Alf" AlfBlume(a)hotmaildotcom wrote in message
k...

Grasping at straws now? ;-)

It did participate, as did all other that served on that day in any
capacity; and the original question was whether the paintscheme was
correct - It was!


The paint scheme is correct for the invasion of southern France.

"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...

Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The
Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944".

It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very
potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It
may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It
is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter
cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the
English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over
the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in
the invasion, but they did *support* it.


Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of Operation
NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in the history of 800
Squadron?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message
...
Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The
Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944".

It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very
potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It
may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It
is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter
cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the
English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over
the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in
the invasion, but they did *support* it.


Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of Operation
NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in the history of 800
Squadron?


The question might better be "What does the
official 800 Squadron history say it was doing
during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944?
What does the official history of HMS Emperor say
it was doing in that same time period. Not the
web history, but the official history in the RN
archives.

If you go to
http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm
, in the body it makes no mention of Emperor
supporting the Normandy landings. But if you
look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among
its battle honors.

There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's
history as it appears on the web. One source
mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but
makes no mention of them in the invasion of
southern France in the body of the history. But
it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor.

This source,
http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron
indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of
absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before
participating in the invasion of Southern France.

It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at
the time of the invasion and Emperor was present
in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron.

One needs to get to the original sources to truly
answer the question of Emperor being at or near
Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always
consistent.



--
Lynn in StLou
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