IFR just 5.4% of the time

On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated areas
under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a real
issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least some
ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard to tell
if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand, unlit towers
are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or night, and this
is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All one has
to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above the altitude
of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly listed on every
sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.

Andrew Sarangan writes:

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks.

If you are flying in the mountains below the peaks at night ...

--
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On Mar 3, 9:19 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Andrew Sarangan writes:
If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks.

If you are flying in the mountains below the peaks at night ...


It is done all the time, unless you think pilots who live in Colorado,
Arizona etc.. should not be flying VFR at night at all.

Andrew Sarangan writes:

It is done all the time, unless you think pilots who live in Colorado,
Arizona etc.. should not be flying VFR at night at all.

As long as I'm not aboard, I don't care what they do.

There are lots of places in Colorado and Arizona without mountains.

--
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Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Neil

Neil Gould wrote:

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:


On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:


Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.


I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Why? I've flown on full-moon nights where it was very easy to see the
terrain. A new moon night is an entirely different animal, however. I
don't think your blanket statement above is true.

Matt

On Mar 3, 1:04 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Why? I've flown on full-moon nights where it was very easy to see the
terrain. A new moon night is an entirely different animal, however. I
don't think your blanket statement above is true.



Full moon is nice to have, but you don't necessary need a full moon to
see the terrain. Pilots fly every day in the vast mountain areas of
this country at night under VFR without any problems. There are of
course hazards that come with any flying activity, but if you insist
on only flying the MEF altitude, you will have to avoid flying night
VFR in nearly a third of this country.

I have flown in the remote areas of the southwestern desert mountains
with no moon at all, and you can see the terrain just fine. You just
needs to be more pro-active when looking outside (dim cockpit lights,
proper dark adaptation) and exercise the usual mountain area
precautions.

Not flying the MEF is not bad preflight planning. In fact I would
claim that insisting on flying the MEF is poor planning because you
are wasting too much time and fuel to do something that could be done
far simpler by flying a lower altitude.

Consider a routine night VFR flight from Albuquerque to Santa Fe,
which is only 40 miles. MEF is 11,000 ft. Are you really going to
climb to 11000 ft (about 6000' AGL) to go 40 miles? If you do that, I
can assure you that you will get funny looks from pilots who live in
that area.

On Mar 3, 10:59 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:





On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, these areas are not the exceptional areas. Large chucks of this
country falls ine areas where MEF is simply not attainable or
practical in small airplanes.

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

The field elevation of Colorado Springs Airport is about 6200ft. The
MEF is 12000 ft and higher. If you believe that, just go out there
some day and see for yourself how many night VFR operations are
conducted there well below the MEF.
This is just one example, and you can find hundreds of examples if you
browse the charts for the western states.

Andrew Sarangan writes:

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

You can fly above the mountain peaks just about anywhere. If you can't, then
it might be a good idea to stay out of areas where you can't at night.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 10:59 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:





On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day
or night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will
not be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the
very definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks.
Please don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight
planning" when it is your reponse that is not adequately thought
out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to
be *exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not
invalidate a rule.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, these areas are not the exceptional areas. Large chucks of this
country falls ine areas where MEF is simply not attainable or
practical in small airplanes.

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

The field elevation of Colorado Springs Airport is about 6200ft. The
MEF is 12000 ft and higher. If you believe that, just go out there
some day and see for yourself how many night VFR operations are
conducted there well below the MEF.

Interesting that you should mention this area, as I was out there last
summer, and am somewhat familiar with it. I was doing some mountain flying
around Magdelena/Socorro, and have spent time in Santa Fe, Taos, Silver
Springs, and Ruidoso as well. So, for those who are unfamiliar with the
area, I'd add the following details that may make your story appear a bit
differently.

If you're flying *west* out of Colorado Springs Airport, say to Nevada,
then you'll have to deal with the Rockies and the MEF you're indicating.
For a good distance to the north, south, and to the Manzano range in the
east it's a different story entirely, and if you follow the interstate
it's easy to fly a MEF at around 2000' AGL. Someone mentioned flying from
Alburquerque to Santa Fe. Unless their planned route takes them through
the Sandias, they also will not be doing any "mountain flying" (again,
just follow the interstate). And, full moons are the exception to night
time; 12 vs. 365. So, to be relevant to the topic at hand, I'd like to
know if you're suggesting that taking any of the *mountain flying* routes
at night are safe, good planning, as your responses imply? ;-)

Neil