IFR just 5.4% of the time

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Neil

Neil Gould wrote:

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:


On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:


Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.


I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Why? I've flown on full-moon nights where it was very easy to see the
terrain. A new moon night is an entirely different animal, however. I
don't think your blanket statement above is true.

Matt

On Mar 3, 1:04 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
Neil Gould wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Why? I've flown on full-moon nights where it was very easy to see the
terrain. A new moon night is an entirely different animal, however. I
don't think your blanket statement above is true.



Full moon is nice to have, but you don't necessary need a full moon to
see the terrain. Pilots fly every day in the vast mountain areas of
this country at night under VFR without any problems. There are of
course hazards that come with any flying activity, but if you insist
on only flying the MEF altitude, you will have to avoid flying night
VFR in nearly a third of this country.

I have flown in the remote areas of the southwestern desert mountains
with no moon at all, and you can see the terrain just fine. You just
needs to be more pro-active when looking outside (dim cockpit lights,
proper dark adaptation) and exercise the usual mountain area
precautions.

Not flying the MEF is not bad preflight planning. In fact I would
claim that insisting on flying the MEF is poor planning because you
are wasting too much time and fuel to do something that could be done
far simpler by flying a lower altitude.

Consider a routine night VFR flight from Albuquerque to Santa Fe,
which is only 40 miles. MEF is 11,000 ft. Are you really going to
climb to 11000 ft (about 6000' AGL) to go 40 miles? If you do that, I
can assure you that you will get funny looks from pilots who live in
that area.

On Mar 3, 10:59 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:





On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day or
night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks. Please
don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight planning" when
it is your reponse that is not adequately thought out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to be
*exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not invalidate a
rule.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, these areas are not the exceptional areas. Large chucks of this
country falls ine areas where MEF is simply not attainable or
practical in small airplanes.

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

The field elevation of Colorado Springs Airport is about 6200ft. The
MEF is 12000 ft and higher. If you believe that, just go out there
some day and see for yourself how many night VFR operations are
conducted there well below the MEF.
This is just one example, and you can find hundreds of examples if you
browse the charts for the western states.

Andrew Sarangan writes:

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

You can fly above the mountain peaks just about anywhere. If you can't, then
it might be a good idea to stay out of areas where you can't at night.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 10:59 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:





On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day
or night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will
not be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the
very definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks.
Please don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight
planning" when it is your reponse that is not adequately thought
out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to
be *exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not
invalidate a rule.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, these areas are not the exceptional areas. Large chucks of this
country falls ine areas where MEF is simply not attainable or
practical in small airplanes.

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

The field elevation of Colorado Springs Airport is about 6200ft. The
MEF is 12000 ft and higher. If you believe that, just go out there
some day and see for yourself how many night VFR operations are
conducted there well below the MEF.

Interesting that you should mention this area, as I was out there last
summer, and am somewhat familiar with it. I was doing some mountain flying
around Magdelena/Socorro, and have spent time in Santa Fe, Taos, Silver
Springs, and Ruidoso as well. So, for those who are unfamiliar with the
area, I'd add the following details that may make your story appear a bit
differently.

If you're flying *west* out of Colorado Springs Airport, say to Nevada,
then you'll have to deal with the Rockies and the MEF you're indicating.
For a good distance to the north, south, and to the Manzano range in the
east it's a different story entirely, and if you follow the interstate
it's easy to fly a MEF at around 2000' AGL. Someone mentioned flying from
Alburquerque to Santa Fe. Unless their planned route takes them through
the Sandias, they also will not be doing any "mountain flying" (again,
just follow the interstate). And, full moons are the exception to night
time; 12 vs. 365. So, to be relevant to the topic at hand, I'd like to
know if you're suggesting that taking any of the *mountain flying* routes
at night are safe, good planning, as your responses imply? ;-)

Neil

On Mar 4, 8:06 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:





On Mar 3, 10:59 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 3, 7:28 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

Terrain avoidance at night becomes a problem only in unpopulated
areas under an overcast moonless sky. It has happened, so it is a
real issue, but most pilots fly in areas where there are at least
some ground lights, moon or stars, and it is really not that hard
to tell if you are heading towards a mountain. On the other hand,
unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether it is day
or night, and this is why they get NOTAM'd.

The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All
one has to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above
the altitude of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly
listed on every sectional, it is not a difficult task.

Neil

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will
not be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the
very definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks.
Please don't flame my responses as "examples of bad preflight
planning" when it is your reponse that is not adequately thought
out.

I would consider a "go" decision to fly in the mountains at night to
be *exceptionally* bad pre-flight planning. Exceptions do not
invalidate a rule.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, these areas are not the exceptional areas. Large chucks of this
country falls ine areas where MEF is simply not attainable or
practical in small airplanes.

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that is
by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the eastern and
midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

The field elevation of Colorado Springs Airport is about 6200ft. The
MEF is 12000 ft and higher. If you believe that, just go out there
some day and see for yourself how many night VFR operations are
conducted there well below the MEF.

Interesting that you should mention this area, as I was out there last
summer, and am somewhat familiar with it. I was doing some mountain flying
around Magdelena/Socorro, and have spent time in Santa Fe, Taos, Silver
Springs, and Ruidoso as well. So, for those who are unfamiliar with the
area, I'd add the following details that may make your story appear a bit
differently.

If you're flying *west* out of Colorado Springs Airport, say to Nevada,
then you'll have to deal with the Rockies and the MEF you're indicating.
For a good distance to the north, south, and to the Manzano range in the
east it's a different story entirely, and if you follow the interstate
it's easy to fly a MEF at around 2000' AGL. Someone mentioned flying from
Alburquerque to Santa Fe. Unless their planned route takes them through
the Sandias, they also will not be doing any "mountain flying" (again,
just follow the interstate). And, full moons are the exception to night
time; 12 vs. 365. So, to be relevant to the topic at hand, I'd like to
know if you're suggesting that taking any of the *mountain flying* routes
at night are safe, good planning, as your responses imply? ;-)

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As you mentioned, a flight from Albuquerque to Santa Fe does not
involve what we normally consider as mountain flying. However, you
will be flying in an area where the MEF is high, and your cruise
altitude is well below the mountain peaks. The original posted claimed
that flying below the MEF under night VFR was an example of poor
planning. My point was that there was nothing wrong with that, it is
done all the time, and there is no immediate danger of colliding with
terrain just because you are below the MEF at night under VFR.

As to whether any mountain flying routes are safe at night, it
depends. You would not want to, for example, fly to Glenwood Springs,
CO (GWS) at night because the traffic pattern is way too close to high
terrain. A wide pattern will put you in the path of the rocks. But go
20 miles to the west to Rifle, CO and it is safe to fly at night. Both
airports share the same MEF, and their airport elevations are almost
the same. One is safe at night, the other is not.

To reiterate my point, MEF cannot be used as a blanket rule for flight
planning purposes. One has to know more about mountain flying tactics
to make an intelligent decision. For the flat lander, it may be wise
to avoid these areas altogether at night until they get some
instruction.

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 4, 8:06 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:
Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:
No, these areas are not the exceptional areas. Large chucks of this
country falls ine areas where MEF is simply not attainable or
practical in small airplanes.

I can see the sprit of the 'rule' that was taught to you, but that
is by no means a rule. It is easy to follow that rule in the
eastern and midwestern states, but it is impossible in the west.

The field elevation of Colorado Springs Airport is about 6200ft. The
MEF is 12000 ft and higher. If you believe that, just go out there
some day and see for yourself how many night VFR operations are
conducted there well below the MEF.

Interesting that you should mention this area, as I was out there
last summer, and am somewhat familiar with it. I was doing some
mountain flying around Magdelena/Socorro, and have spent time in
Santa Fe, Taos, Silver Springs, and Ruidoso as well. So, for those
who are unfamiliar with the area, I'd add the following details that
may make your story appear a bit differently.

If you're flying *west* out of Colorado Springs Airport, say to
Nevada, then you'll have to deal with the Rockies and the MEF you're
indicating. For a good distance to the north, south, and to the
Manzano range in the east it's a different story entirely, and if
you follow the interstate it's easy to fly a MEF at around 2000'
AGL. Someone mentioned flying from Alburquerque to Santa Fe. Unless
their planned route takes them through the Sandias, they also will
not be doing any "mountain flying" (again, just follow the
interstate). And, full moons are the exception to night time; 12 vs.
365. So, to be relevant to the topic at hand, I'd like to know if
you're suggesting that taking any of the *mountain flying* routes at
night are safe, good planning, as your responses imply? ;-)


As you mentioned, a flight from Albuquerque to Santa Fe does not
involve what we normally consider as mountain flying. However, you
will be flying in an area where the MEF is high, and your cruise
altitude is well below the mountain peaks. The original posted claimed
that flying below the MEF under night VFR was an example of poor
planning. My point was that there was nothing wrong with that, it is
done all the time, and there is no immediate danger of colliding with
terrain just because you are below the MEF at night under VFR.

As to whether any mountain flying routes are safe at night, it
depends. You would not want to, for example, fly to Glenwood Springs,
CO (GWS) at night because the traffic pattern is way too close to high
terrain. A wide pattern will put you in the path of the rocks. But go
20 miles to the west to Rifle, CO and it is safe to fly at night. Both
airports share the same MEF, and their airport elevations are almost
the same. One is safe at night, the other is not.

To reiterate my point, MEF cannot be used as a blanket rule for flight
planning purposes. One has to know more about mountain flying tactics
to make an intelligent decision. For the flat lander, it may be wise
to avoid these areas altogether at night until they get some
instruction.

The way I read it, you were suggesting that *mountain flying at night* was
safe, and I see that as being quite different from "flying at night in a
state that has mountains". Again, one who planned well would know that,
and IMO, no amount of planning would make flying in the mountains at night
safe.

So, I maintain that flying above MEF covers most of the US airspace, and
flying in a state that has mountains in a quadrant nowhere near where
you're flying is an exception that doesn't change the rule. Do you
disagree with that?

Neil

P.S. -- I meant "Silver City", above.

On Mar 4, 10:16 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:

The way I read it, you were suggesting that *mountain flying at night* was
safe, and I see that as being quite different from "flying at night in a
state that has mountains". Again, one who planned well would know that,
and IMO, no amount of planning would make flying in the mountains at night
safe.

So, I maintain that flying above MEF covers most of the US airspace, and
flying in a state that has mountains in a quadrant nowhere near where
you're flying is an exception that doesn't change the rule. Do you
disagree with that?

Neil



A discussion on mountain flying is not what I was attempting to start
here. I was only responding to the comment that "flying below the MEF
is an example of poor preflight planning". One example, as you also
pointed out, is a flight between Albuquerque and Santa Fe.

Regarding mountain flying at night, I won't say that it is perfectly
safe or that it is always dangerous and unsafe. Mountains don't always
mean they are unsafe. You have to consider a multitude of factors,
such as topography, sky condition, ground lighting, wind conditions,
density altitude etc.. MEF is not a high ranking factor in the
decision matrix.

So, I agree with you in the sense that mountain flying at night can be
tricky if you don't know the terrain, or if you are new to this.

However, I disagree that flying above MEF is the norm for most of the
U.S. In most areas of CO, NM, UT, AZ, ID and some areas of CA, NV,
OR, WA, MT and WY as well as VA, WV and TN one would routinely fly
below the MEF. I have not done the math, but I would not describe
these massive areas as exceptions to the CONUS.

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

On Mar 4, 10:16 am, "Neil Gould" wrote:

The way I read it, you were suggesting that *mountain flying at
night* was safe, and I see that as being quite different from
"flying at night in a state that has mountains". Again, one who
planned well would know that, and IMO, no amount of planning would
make flying in the mountains at night safe.

So, I maintain that flying above MEF covers most of the US airspace,
and flying in a state that has mountains in a quadrant nowhere near
where you're flying is an exception that doesn't change the rule. Do
you disagree with that?


A discussion on mountain flying is not what I was attempting to start
here.

Well, it was your post on 3/3/07 that I responded to:

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

If you insist on flying above the MEF for each quadrant, you will not
be able to do any GA flying in the mountain states. This is the very
definition of mountain flying - ie flying below the peaks.

This statement seems pretty unambiguous.

I was only responding to the comment that "flying below the MEF
is an example of poor preflight planning".

Wait a second. Your above statement is NOT something I wrote, so it should
not be in quotes.

My comment in response to your statement:
"On the other hand, unlit towers are a real concern, regardless of whether
it is day or night..."

was:
"The above is an excellent example of bad pre-flight planning. All one has
to do to avoid terrain, day, night, IMC, etc. is stay above the altitude
of any obstructions in the sector. As this is plainly listed on every
sectional, it is not a difficult task."

Perhaps it rubbed you the wrong way, and if so, sorry about that. But it
is still a true statement that the altitude of obstructions are listed on
every sectional, and obstacle avoidance is easy to do with a little
planning. The whole business about MEF came up later and in the context of
moutain flying.

Regarding mountain flying at night, I won't say that it is perfectly
safe or that it is always dangerous and unsafe. Mountains don't always
mean they are unsafe. You have to consider a multitude of factors,
such as topography, sky condition, ground lighting, wind conditions,
density altitude etc.. MEF is not a high ranking factor in the
decision matrix.

Again, I understand and agree with your point about ranking MEF in the
decision tree. Still, I won't go mountain flying at night with anyone
(e.g. in the mountains and below the peaks) unless my chances of living
are significantly reduced by not doing so. YMMV.

However, I disagree that flying above MEF is the norm for most of the
U.S. In most areas of CO, NM, UT, AZ, ID and some areas of CA, NV,
OR, WA, MT and WY as well as VA, WV and TN one would routinely fly
below the MEF. I have not done the math, but I would not describe
these massive areas as exceptions to the CONUS.

I would exclude those states east of the Mississippi, as most GA aircraft
would have no problems staying above MEF, and except for take-off and
landing, I see little reason to fly below the peaks at night in those
states. As for AZ, CA, CO, NM, NV, MT, UT, WA, and WY, even though there
are mountainous areas, there are also very large, open areas relatively
free of mountains in each of those states. So, in terms of square mileage,
I'd stick to my opinion about the practicality of flying above MEF.

Regards,

Neil