Do you have to solo to get current?

"601XL Builder" wrDOTgiacona@suddenlinkDOTnet wrote in message
...
Maxwell wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Maxwell wrote:
"Judah" wrote in message
.. .
It doesn't matter what you call the guy in the right seat. For the
purpose of meeting 61.57, the person in the right seat is not
necessary for the conduct of the flight, and therefore doesn't
belong there.
It matters if you call him a pilot. How can you consider someone
mearly a passenger, if they are as qualified to fly the aircraft as
the pilot. And if he is indeed a pilot, you are not carrying a
passenger, and you don't have to meet the requirements of 61.57.

Currency to carry a passenger is what 61.57 is all about.

I see where the guy is going with this, and I for one think he might
have a point.

Not to mention the fact that if both people are qualified to solo the
aircraft, why would the FAA care. They are both pilots and they are
not carrying passengers.
The FAA cares in several situations. Let's take for example my
Homebuilt. For the first 40 hours only one person can be in it at a
time. I can't even have a fully qualified CFI in the plane with me
during that Phase 1 time.

And in what way does have anything to do with this topic?



I was giving an example where the FAA would care. It is a similar
situation where the flight would be legal with one of two pilots on board
but not both of the pilots at the same time.

If you don't see the similarity you are either stupid or a troll.

No, I'm not stupid, and I'm certainly not a troll.

You want to compare as sutation where you have,

two certifed pilots, each flying the same certified airplane individually,

to two certified pilots, flying in the same certified airplane at the same
time,

to a builder flying the initial 40 hours off an amauter build aircraft.

In no way are either of the first two examples in any way related to a test
pilot flying and unknown ship during it's it's initial 40 hours.

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
"Maxwell" wrote in news6HIh.16227$TK5.12353
@newsfe13.lga:

No he would not. But no mater what you call him, if he is any kind of
quaified pilot, as opposed to a passenger, 61.57 does not apply. Because
61.57 is about carrying passengers.

If he ever intends to fly with passengers in the future, he may not use
three takeoffs and landings during a flight carrying non-required persons
or property to meet his currency requirement. That's pretty clear.

That's an interesting angle, but I don't think it would be correct. The way
I am reading it, if he has done three takeoffs and landings in the past 90
days under any circumstances, he is current to fly passengers.


I disagree with your definition of a passenger. But I'm not an authority.

Agreed, and this is the question if the hour so to speak.



However, the definition is suspicious to me because you qualify a non-
passenger pilot as anyone who holds a pilot certificate, and also is BFR
and Medical current.

Nothing in 61.23 says that a person needs a Medical in order to "be" a
pilot. Only to excercise the privileges of the pilot. Is "being" a pilot
instead of a passenger a privilege?

And nothing in 61.56 says that a person needs a BFR to "be" a pilot. One
need only have a BFR in order to act as Pilot in Command.


True, but to present himself to fly SIC, even in an aircraft that doesn't
required him, wouldn't he have to have his medical and BFR? The way I read
it he would. It looks to me like he would have to have everthing except the
3 t&ls in the past 90, to seek such currency, with or without another pilot
in the aircraft.

Additionally, 61.56 (h) specifically says that a BFR can be accomplished
in
combination with 61.57 at the discretion of the instructor. The
implication
to me is that if the rule were not there, and a pilot were to not be
current per 61.57, the instructor would have to be PIC for the flight, and
the pilot getting his BFR would have to kick the instructor out in order
to
meet 61.57.

That's interesting. I wonder if you need to have the instructor specify this
in his endorsement? I always thought 3 T&Ls in the past 90, was 3 T&Ls in
the past 90. I think I will check some of mine. I have always specifed I
wanted to cover that base when I take a BFR, and have always done the 3 T&Ls
at night when I take a BFR. But I don't recal any note from the instructor
indicating it was included. Just the T&Ls count for that line item in my
log.







YMMV

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Judah" wrote in message
. ..
"Maxwell" wrote in news6HIh.16227$TK5.12353
@newsfe13.lga:

No he would not. But no mater what you call him, if he is any kind of
quaified pilot, as opposed to a passenger, 61.57 does not apply.
Because 61.57 is about carrying passengers.

If he ever intends to fly with passengers in the future, he may not use
three takeoffs and landings during a flight carrying non-required
persons or property to meet his currency requirement. That's pretty
clear.

That's an interesting angle, but I don't think it would be correct. The
way I am reading it, if he has done three takeoffs and landings in the
past 90 days under any circumstances, he is current to fly passengers.

Section (2) of 61.57 is quite clear. For the purpose of meeting the
requirements of (a)(1), if he was PIC he can't have carried persons or
property that weren't necessary aboard the flight.

How else is that to be interpreted?

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
t...
"Skidder" wrote in message
...

Not until we find a reg that stipulates the second pilot is a pax.

--
Skidder

I think that's asking a bit much. Why would there be such a reg? The vast
majority of laws, guidelines and beliefs in our society define
requirements to be an "X." Why would we need to continue, then, to clarify
the requirements for not being an "X?"

We have the sole manipulator of the controls (PIC) and we have a person
responsible for the flight (loggable PIC). That's usually the same person
but, by negative inference, everyone else is a passenger - unless one of
them is a CFI in which case they get blamed for everything even if they
are in the back seat. (that's a bad joke that has seen the light of day)
-------------------------------

Don't forget about safety pilot if flying under the hood.

Danny Deger

Maxwell wrote:

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Maxwell wrote:
He is out of town today, and I was just taking up for him for what

seemed to me to be a very malicious attack from someone that just wants
to end the thread.

The thread was ended with the first reply. It's cut and dried. get over
it.



Who died and made you God?



Has nothing to do with god. The fact that the second person is a pilot
is irrelavant.

On Mar 10, 7:32 pm, Judah wrote:
"Maxwell" wrote in news6HIh.16227$TK5.12353
@newsfe13.lga:

No he would not. But no mater what you call him, if he is any kind of
quaified pilot, as opposed to a passenger, 61.57 does not apply. Because
61.57 is about carrying passengers.

If he ever intends to fly with passengers in the future, he may not use
three takeoffs and landings during a flight carrying non-required persons
or property to meet his currency requirement. That's pretty clear.

What you are saying here doesn't make any sense at all. The intent of
61.57 (2) is to allow somebody in an aircraft which requires more than
1 crewmember to regain their currency. For example, you have a non-
current pilot in a jet certified for more than one crewmember. He
cannot act as PIC per 61.57 (1) (talks also about aircraft for more
than one pilot). However, if he wants to regain currency, 61.57 (2)
allows him to act as a PIC of the aircraft in order to do his three
touch and goes, and allows to carry the required crewmember. But he
can only fly if the purpose of his flight is to get current.

On Mar 9, 4:35 pm, Judah wrote:
Based on Paragraph (2) of 61.57, it doesn't matter whether the other guy is
qualified to solo. If the flight is used to establish currency (ie: you
count the takeoffs and landings toward your 90 day requirement) then it
violates paragraph (2) to have anyone at all in the right seat if you are
PIC.

If you do it with an instructor, that instructor is PIC for the flight.

If you do it with a current pilot, that pilot is PIC for the flight.

If you do it with a dog, you violate.

If you do it with a fat woman named Betty, you violate.

If you do it with a package that you are dropping off at a friends house,
you violate.

The only exception I can see is if you don't log the takeoffs and landings.
However, the wording in 61.57 refers to MAKING takeoffs and landings, not
logging them, so even making a takeoff or landing without logging it might
be a violation.


This is absolute non-sense. 61.57 (2) just allows a pilot who cannot
comply with 61.57 (1) to do a legal flight in order to regain
currency, in aircraft certified for more than one pilot (because if
you don't need more than one pilot then 61.57 allows you to do the
flight).
What you are saying implies that I can't count any flights I do with
passengers for currency purposes, which doesn't make any sense either.
And saying that a flight can be legal or not legal depending on the
fact that you log or not log the landings is non-sense as well.
You have completely misinterpreted 61.57 (2)

On Mar 9, 7:32 pm, "Skidder" wrote:

Because the answer to your question is trivial. We already answered
it. If you don't like the answer call AOPA, don't bug us about the
fact that you disagree with what we already told you is fact. Call
AOPA (or the FSDO) if you want to argue it.

Well what can I say Robert. If you think the answer is that trivial, and open
and shut, and you have no interest in exploring the topic, why are you here?
There are lots of other threads, and groups to explore.

Well, I think that for almost everyone the answer is trivial.

You are confusing the qualifications of a specific person (i.e. being
a pilot), with the role that the person is doing during a flight.

The person who is not the PIC can be A pilot, but not THE pilot for
the specific flight.
If the other pilot sits in the back seat, he is still A pilot right,
so it can be carried without the guy in the front being current? Even
sitting in front of my computer, I am still A pilot. I am just not
being THE pilot of any flight.
If I sit in the back of an airliner, I am still a pilot right?.. I
still have my pilot's license.....but I am a passenger of that
specific flight.
If I am not THE pilot of a specific flight, or other crewmember, then
I am a passenger, who happens to be qualified as a pilot.

"Guillermo" wrote in news:1173585901.106379.264560
@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

What you are saying here doesn't make any sense at all. The intent of
61.57 (2) is to allow somebody in an aircraft which requires more than
1 crewmember to regain their currency. For example, you have a non-
current pilot in a jet certified for more than one crewmember. He
cannot act as PIC per 61.57 (1) (talks also about aircraft for more
than one pilot). However, if he wants to regain currency, 61.57 (2)
allows him to act as a PIC of the aircraft in order to do his three
touch and goes, and allows to carry the required crewmember. But he
can only fly if the purpose of his flight is to get current.

But it doesn't specify anything in (1) or (2) that limits it to currency in a
jet certified for 2 crewmembers. It just says that if you want to fly a
mission for the purpose of being sole manipulator of the controls to regain
currency, you can be PIC of a plane in day VFR or IFR provided you're not
carrying anything aboard that is not necessary for the conduct of the flight.

As far as I can tell, that would mean that anytime you are out of currency,
you can't count a flight with passengers or non-required crewmembers toward
currency. If you are current, however, and take off and land with passengers,
crewmembers, packages, dogs, or elephants on the plane, you can count it. But
once you come out of currency, section (2) applies...

On Mar 11, 3:34 am, Judah wrote:
"Guillermo" wrote in news:1173585901.106379.264560
@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

What you are saying here doesn't make any sense at all. The intent of
61.57 (2) is to allow somebody in an aircraft which requires more than
1 crewmember to regain their currency. For example, you have a non-
current pilot in a jet certified for more than one crewmember. He
cannot act as PIC per 61.57 (1) (talks also about aircraft for more
than one pilot). However, if he wants to regain currency, 61.57 (2)
allows him to act as a PIC of the aircraft in order to do his three
touch and goes, and allows to carry the required crewmember. But he
can only fly if the purpose of his flight is to get current.

But it doesn't specify anything in (1) or (2) that limits it to currency in a
jet certified for 2 crewmembers. It just says that if you want to fly a
mission for the purpose of being sole manipulator of the controls to regain
currency, you can be PIC of a plane in day VFR or IFR provided you're not
carrying anything aboard that is not necessary for the conduct of the flight.

As far as I can tell, that would mean that anytime you are out of currency,
you can't count a flight with passengers or non-required crewmembers toward
currency. If you are current, however, and take off and land with passengers,
crewmembers, packages, dogs, or elephants on the plane, you can count it. But
once you come out of currency, section (2) applies...

Well, it is not that you can't count the flight. You can't even DO the
flight legally with passengers if you are not current (I don't want to
start a discussion of whether elephants and dogs are passengers, so
lets focus now on the packages).
You have to remember the fact that in general the regulations tell you
what you CAN'T do, as opposed to what you CAN do. If the FARs tell
don't tell you that you can't do something, then you can do it.
If I am not-current in a C-152, I still can carry non-necessary
packages on board. There is no regulation than prevents me to do so.
61.57 (1) just talks about passengers. And 61.57 (2) never says that
somebody may not act as PIC with packages, just says that you MAY
conduct a flight if the flight is is done for the purpose of regaining
currency, and provided no elephants, passengers or packages are
carried. But remember that you can carry anything or anybody necessary
for the conduct of the flight. The only case you will be taking
advantage of 61.57 (2) is if you are in an aircraft certified for more
than 1 crewmember, because 61.57 (1) does not allow y ou to fly, but
61.57 (2) gives you authorization to do it only if your purpose is to
regain currency and certain conditions are met.