What do you do in the real world?

Newps wrote:


Tim wrote:


"Holding Instructions
If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance
beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned
altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted
holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are
expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on
the course upon which you approached the fix. You should
immediately request further clearance."



You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up
the works.


I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport
that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do. That is
why I posted it.

I hope you are not saying to do this at any airport.

In article , Tim
wrote:

Newps wrote:


Tim wrote:


"Holding Instructions
If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance
beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned
altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted
holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are
expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on
the course upon which you approached the fix. You should
immediately request further clearance."



You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up
the works.


I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport

This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.

That is what the regs say to do.

He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do.

Believe it. I fly IFR routinely. (But I don't lose comm routinely.)

rg

This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF? You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless
on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the
destination?



that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.


That is what the regs say to do.

So how in the world would I navigate to the airport using just a VOR?
The only way to do it is to use an IAP. Thus, I fly the IAP to my
clearance limit -0 which is the aiport I filed to.



He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do.


Believe it. I fly IFR routinely. (But I don't lose comm routinely.)


Right, but you were also unaware of what to do when reaching a clearance
limit with no more instructions and no published hold.

rg

Tim wrote:

This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF? You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.

Indeed, there is confusion about a clearance limit and the route
involved in getting there.

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport,
unless on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and
not the destination?

When one files flight plans lazily. Our ex-ATC friend at avweb
complains about this regularly. One is supposed to include an
approach facility at the end of the route.

- FChE

In article ,
(Frank Ch. Eigler) wrote:

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport,
unless on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and
not the destination?

When one files flight plans lazily.

For the record, I filed ROM-AVE-LHS-direct. (In my entire IFR career I
have only once received a clearance that was simply "as filed" so I
often wonder why I bother.)

Our ex-ATC friend at avweb
complains about this regularly. One is supposed to include an
approach facility at the end of the route.

Huh? Are you sure you meant "approach facility"?

rg

In article ,
Tim wrote:



This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF?

Because that's what the regs say. You are the one saying I should be
following the regs.

You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.

An odd bit of advice from someone who believes that one should follow
the regs and not improvise.

Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless
on an IAP?

I enter the airport's identifier into my GPS and hit the "direct" button.

When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the destination?

When it is my clearance limit. Are we done with the pop quiz now?

that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.


That is what the regs say to do.

So how in the world would I navigate to the airport using just a VOR?

Non-sequitur. I filed /G. But let me ask you: how would YOU fly direct
from SNS to an IAP for KVNY using just a VOR?

The only way to do it is to use an IAP.

Wow, you really are clueless, aren't you. Are you not aware of the
existence of IFR-certified GPS? (Are you even a pilot?)

Right, but you were also unaware of what to do when reaching a clearance
limit with no more instructions and no published hold.

You should look up the aphorism about people who live in glass houses.

rg

Ron Garret wrote:
In article ,
Tim wrote:



This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport
(KVNY to be precise).

So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the
airport then the IAF?


Because that's what the regs say. You are the one saying I should be
following the regs.

I give up.



You should go to an IAF, then land at your
clearance limit - which is the airport.


An odd bit of advice from someone who believes that one should follow
the regs and not improvise.


Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless
on an IAP?


I enter the airport's identifier into my GPS and hit the "direct" button.


And those of us without that magical device? The way to navigate to the
clearance limit - the airport, is to use the IAP. In these cases, any
one that you choose. So, once again, you do NOT go to the airport and
circle around it and hang out. You go to an IAF, then to your clearance
limit and land. What good does it do to be at your destination which is
your clearance limit at 10000 ft?


When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the destination?


When it is my clearance limit. Are we done with the pop quiz now?

Ugh. we are going round and round...



that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach.


That is what the regs say to do.

So how in the world would I navigate to the airport using just a VOR?


Non-sequitur. I filed /G. But let me ask you: how would YOU fly direct
from SNS to an IAP for KVNY using just a VOR?


The only way to do it is to use an IAP.


Wow, you really are clueless, aren't you. Are you not aware of the
existence of IFR-certified GPS? (Are you even a pilot?)

I am not the clueless one, Mr Pot. Shall I reintroduce your suggestion
of making **** up when reaching a clearance limit and not having any
further instructions?

My plane does not have a GPS. the regs have to work for me too.

Yes, I am a pilot.


Right, but you were also unaware of what to do when reaching a clearance
limit with no more instructions and no published hold.


You should look up the aphorism about people who live in glass houses.

Yes, Mr. Pot.


rg

In article , Tim
wrote:

And those of us without that magical device?

You would not have been able to navigate direct from SNS to KVNY (or any
of its IAFs) so this whole discussion would have been moot.

rg

Tim wrote:



I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport
that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an
approach. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance
limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not
believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do. That is
why I posted it.

I hope you are not saying to do this at any airport.

As a controller at a class C I want you down. We will be watching you
on radar. ATC has no idea what your estrimated time is to any fix in a
radar environment. Don't sit anywhere and hold. If it's VFR pick an
airplane to follow and land, just like your NORDO in the pattern. If
your IMC pick an approach and land.

Newps wrote:


Tim wrote:



I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an
airport that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to
do an approach. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a
clearance limit when there are no published holds at that point. I
could not believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to
do. That is why I posted it.

I hope you are not saying to do this at any airport.


As a controller at a class C I want you down. We will be watching you
on radar. ATC has no idea what your estrimated time is to any fix in a
radar environment. Don't sit anywhere and hold. If it's VFR pick an
airplane to follow and land, just like your NORDO in the pattern. If
your IMC pick an approach and land.


That sounds good to me. I was not advocating holding - I was pointing
out that making stuff up was not correct - the situation is addressed
and there is no need to improvise as the OP stated. My point was that
this is the procedure one is supposed to follow nordo or not when you
reach a clearance limit with no other instructions and no published hold
at that limit.