What do you do in the real world?

Ron Garret wrote:
In article ,
Tim wrote:


So you are saying that one has to change operating rules based on the
route of the flight.


No, I am not saying that. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?


I don't have to - they are right he
"Because it's a different route. The circumstances are different. What
one does when flying to FUL may or may not apply when flying to VNY."

If you did not mean that, then please explain to my why you have two
different examples and two different scenarios? I would imagine that
the regulations provide a good description of what has to happen for all
circumstances.

All I tried to point out was the fallacy of your suggestions in your
examples.


It is your clearance limit because that is where you filed to and where
you want to land.


No, it was my clearance limit because that is where I was cleared to.


Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct." You are expecting that every time you fly to an airport
you are going to fly to the airport, but somewhere along the line a
controller is going to lead you to an IAF, the final approach course, or
some other way get you to land.

If your clearance limit is an airport, what makes you think you can't
execute an IAP and land? Why would you think that the clearance limit
for your airport is at some altitude other than 0 AGL?

I am beginning to suspect that MX is right and you don't actually have a
clue.

That is fine with me.



Again, "direct" does not mean direct to the airport.


That's news to me. Where in the regs does it say that?


When you don't lose comms and you file and fly to an airport and do not
get vectors, where do you go to? You go to an IAF, right?


Not usually. Usually I get vectors to the FAF. I fly in pretty
congested airspace where full approaches are quite rare.


I misunderstood your initial question and I apologize for any demeaning
statements. It appeared to me that you were not aware of what the FARs
stated. Again, my apologies.


Well, it's possible I'm missing something. We seem to have a difference
of opinion about what a direct clearance means. I'm still waiting for a
citation to support your position.

rg

In article ,
Tim wrote:

Ron Garret wrote:
In article ,
Tim wrote:


So you are saying that one has to change operating rules based on the
route of the flight.


No, I am not saying that. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth?


I don't have to - they are right he
"Because it's a different route. The circumstances are different. What
one does when flying to FUL may or may not apply when flying to VNY."

Do you speak English as your native language? Do not you understand the
difference between "one HAS TO change the [general] operating rules"
and "[the specifics of] what one does [in situation X] MAY OR MAY NOT
apply [in situation Y]"?

If you did not mean that, then please explain to my why you have two
different examples and two different scenarios?

The first scenario is the one I am interested in. I raised the second
merely to point out that there is not a universal consensus that blindly
following the rules is always the right thing to do.

It is your clearance limit because that is where you filed to and where
you want to land.


No, it was my clearance limit because that is where I was cleared to.


Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct."

No, that is not what I am arguing. I have never said any such thing
(because that's clearly ridiculous).

I am beginning to lose my patience with you.

You are expecting that every time you fly to an airport
you are going to fly to the airport, but somewhere along the line a
controller is going to lead you to an IAF, the final approach course, or
some other way get you to land.

No. In fact, the only reason I'm asking the question is because I'm NOT
expecting what you say I am expecting.

If your clearance limit is an airport, what makes you think you can't
execute an IAP and land?

Probably the same thing that makes you think that the moon is made of
green cheese. (You don't think the moon is made of green cheese? That
would be my point.)

rg

Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct."


No, that is not what I am arguing. I have never said any such thing
(because that's clearly ridiculous).

You are. You state that you are going to your clearance limit - which
is the airport, THEN, you have to go somewhere else then back to the
airport which was your clearance limit.


I am beginning to lose my patience with you.


The feeling is mutual, believe me.


You are expecting that every time you fly to an airport
you are going to fly to the airport, but somewhere along the line a
controller is going to lead you to an IAF, the final approach course, or
some other way get you to land.


No. In fact, the only reason I'm asking the question is because I'm NOT
expecting what you say I am expecting.

You have stated this many times - you usually get vectors, etc. And
this is the reason you are confused. You also stated that you rarely do
a full approach.



If your clearance limit is an airport, what makes you think you can't
execute an IAP and land?


Probably the same thing that makes you think that the moon is made of
green cheese. (You don't think the moon is made of green cheese? That
would be my point.)


Same thing that happens with a cruise clearance. You are cleared to the
airport and can fly any of the approaches you like.

Losing comms in some ways makes it easier. Fewer things to do. Just
fly the last clearance you were given and land. No need to make things up.

In article , Tim
wrote:


Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because
that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end
of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a
clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you
really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get
a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in
"...direct."


No, that is not what I am arguing. I have never said any such thing
(because that's clearly ridiculous).

You are. You state that you are going to your clearance limit - which
is the airport, THEN, you have to go somewhere else then back to the
airport which was your clearance limit.

That is not the same thing as circling the airport, which is what you
said.

I draw your attention to FAR 91.181(b) and 91.185(c)(3)(ii) which seem
to me to support my position that if your clearance is direct to an
airport and you lose comm in IMC you are supposed to fly to (i.e. over)
the airport first, THEN to an IAF, then land.

We both seem to agree that this would be a stupid thing to do. So could
you please either 1) cite the reg that says that a direct clearance to
an airport is in fact a direct clearance to some unspecified IAF for
that airport or 2) admit that the procedure that we both agree would be
the prudent course of action in fact violates the regs?

rg