fixed wing or rotary wing?

"Steve R" wrote in message
...
So does that mean if a student is training in something other than a
Robinson, then the numbers originally quoted are possible by regulation?


Yes, but it hardly really matters. The Robinson SFAR is not a practical
limitation because you're not likely to be a safe enough pilot to solo in
less time/training than the SFAR prescribes.

I've never heard that the R22 has any significant control issues when
compared to other makes and models that are likely to be used for primary
training other than they've got a relatively light rotor system which
makes collective management more critical than most if power is lost.
I've not heard much about the R44 in that regard. I've never flown either
one although I've ridden in a couple of R22's and they seemed to fly as
well as any helicopter I've been in.


The 22 and early 44's have very low rotor inertia. There were quite a few
accidents early on because of this. IMO the 22 totally unsuitable for flight
training especially when the CFI is a 200 hour pilot. Early 44's have a
similar issue, but the higher inertia later model 44's appear to be much
better. I've never flown in either model, so what do i know? I watched some
people doing "autos" in a 22 and resolved to never get in one.

It just seems strange, without knowing the specifics, that the FAA would
feel it necessary to issue a set of FAR's targeting one specific
manufacturer. That might explain why I've occasionally met individuals
that were outspokenly against flying in one.

Aside from its hideous looks I don't think fear of the latter model 44's is
really justified. The FAA probably saved Robinson from extiction by making
that SFAR tho. They might have been sued out of biz otherwise.

Regarding the time to transition, I think a former poster was wrong about 18
hours. Depending on how you interpret the FAR it could be as much as 30.
When I transitioned from rotorcraft to fixed, I flew about 30 hours over a 1
week interval to get all the stuff out of the way.

Sec. 61.109
(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this
section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with
rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours
of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an
authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of
operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must
include at least--
(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight
training in a helicopter that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving
a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a
helicopter, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date
of the test; and
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least--
(i) 3 hours cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total
distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the
flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between
the takeoff and landing locations; and
(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing
involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating
control tower.

B4RT wrote:

Regarding the time to transition, I think a former poster was wrong about 18
hours. Depending on how you interpret the FAR it could be as much as 30.
When I transitioned from rotorcraft to fixed, I flew about 30 hours over a 1
week interval to get all the stuff out of the way.

I'm the previous poster, and I could for sure be
wrong. Have been before, will be again ;-) but:

Sec. 61.109
(c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this
section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with
rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours
of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an
authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of
operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must
include at least--

Nowhere above does it say the 40 total, 20 dual,
or 10 solo must be flown in a helicopter. If you
look up 61.107b (3), and compare it to 61.107b (1)
you'll find that they are close to identical,
except with a few helicopter specific things added.

The next section specifies helicopter.

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight
training in a helicopter that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

So if you did a 3 hour dual cross country at night
with one leg at least 50NM, you would fulfill all
of the above. (3 hours dual)

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving
a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

Based on my experiences I think that 10 takeoffs
and landings to full stop and go would take about
2 hours (2 hours dual)

(3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a
helicopter, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date
of the test; and

(3 more hours dual)

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least--
(i) 3 hours cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total
distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the
flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between
the takeoff and landing locations; and
(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing
involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating
control tower.

(10 hours solo)

So the way I read this you could meet the
requirements of 61.109 with 40 hours tt, 20 dual,
with at least ~8 hours dual and 10 hours solo in
helicopters. We both agree that in this very
litigious age, it would be a very unusual student
that would convince a CFI to sign them off for
solo with only 5 hours of dual.

To put it in perspective, however, my first CFI
signed me off for solo on my sixteenth birthday
with 4.7 hours of dual logged. Looking back, it
seems hard to fathom, but the logbook doesn't lie.
Also, I grew up from about age 4 flying with my
dad and granddad, so had already taken off and
landed a plane before my first "lesson". We
almost never landed on concrete or asphalt either ;-)

Rotorcraft CFI's feel free to chip in here if I'm
reading Part 61 wrong, or if the FAA has changed
the interpretation with a ruling that I don't know
about.

Don W.

Thanks B4RT, I appeciate the input. The rotor inertia issue Robinson's has
always bothered me a little but more and more folks are earning their
tickets in them so who knows.

"B4RT" wrote in message
...

"Steve R" wrote in message
...
So does that mean if a student is training in something other than a
Robinson, then the numbers originally quoted are possible by regulation?


Yes, but it hardly really matters. The Robinson SFAR is not a practical
limitation because you're not likely to be a safe enough pilot to solo in
less time/training than the SFAR prescribes.


That being the case, I don't see why the FAA doesn't just apply the regs to
everybody as apposed so singleing out one manufacturer.

As for the FAA saving Robinson's tail from litigation, is seems to me that
putting a reg out there that's targets them specifically would have made
them even more of a target for litigation hungry lawyers. They'd say,
"SEE...these birds are so unsafe that even the government had to enact
special regulations against them!!!"

It's hard to tell sometimes.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

Steve R wrote:
So does that mean if a student is training in something other than a
Robinson, then the numbers originally quoted are possible by regulation?


Yes, but it hardly really matters. The Robinson SFAR is not a practical
limitation because you're not likely to be a safe enough pilot to solo in
less time/training than the SFAR prescribes.

That being the case, I don't see why the FAA doesn't just apply the regs to
everybody as apposed so singleing out one manufacturer.

Just because someone is "not likely to be..." does
not mean that someone else will not be. The R22's
were having an unusual number of accidents, so the
FAA acted to address that problem.

Don W.