A tower-induced go-round

Jay Honeck wrote:
Except when requested by the controller or in
emergency situations, a 360 degree turn should never be executed in the
traffic pattern or when receiving radar service without first advising the
controller.


Yep, although I couldn't quote chapter and verse, this is what I
figured the rules were.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport. the tower and the
conflicting traffic forgot about me. I was on final. he turned traffic
following me inthe pattern in front of me. The other traffic had no
awareness... I keyed the mike to let them know what was going on...
doh. got stepped on. did a 360 and then called AFTER. I was not
worried about doing something wrong - I was worried about getting killed
by the controller who dropped the ball and two pilots in the other plane
who were not paying attention to what the heck was going on in the pattern.

It happens too often. Do what you need to do to stay alive.

I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport.

That's why I contend that Class D stands for "D'oh!", and is the most
dangerous airspace in America.

I'll take an uncontrolled airport over non-radar Class D, any day of
the week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Mar 18, 5:57 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport.

That's why I contend that Class D stands for "D'oh!", and is the most
dangerous airspace in America.

Sorry, Tim -- that came out sounding like I thought you were stupid
for making a 360 in the pattern. That's NOT what I meant -- I only
mean that Class D is a dangerous place, thanks to us relying on guys
in a tower with binoculars for spacing, and controllers relying on
guys in airplanes who don't know where the heck they really are.

I agree completely with your rationale for doing what you had to do.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
On Mar 18, 5:57 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport.

That's why I contend that Class D stands for "D'oh!", and is the most
dangerous airspace in America.


Sorry, Tim -- that came out sounding like I thought you were stupid
for making a 360 in the pattern. That's NOT what I meant -- I only
mean that Class D is a dangerous place, thanks to us relying on guys
in a tower with binoculars for spacing, and controllers relying on
guys in airplanes who don't know where the heck they really are.

I agree completely with your rationale for doing what you had to do.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



I did not take it that way. Thanks for the follow up. Students really
need to be told to watch out for themselves - it is all too easy to
assume the controllers are omnipotent and never erring gods. The sooner
you see in training some screw-ups by controllers and other pilots, the
better off you are. Always watch out for yourself and be safe.

I don;t think I will ever find myself near Iowa City, but if I do your
place has been on my list for a while. Congrats on the longevity of the
endeavor.

Jay Honeck wrote:
I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport.


That's why I contend that Class D stands for "D'oh!", and is the most
dangerous airspace in America.

I'll take an uncontrolled airport over non-radar Class D, any day of
the week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



I have been to many fine class D airports. I would take most over the
uncontrolled fields I have been. Cowboys for sure at the uncontrolled
airport near me. I was put on a waiting list at KFRG - glad I decided
to skip that. It is too busy - busier than the class c near here and
the controllers are rude. Then went to KHWV - that is a dangerous place
to fly - non-towered - insane amounts of scary piloting there and I am
finally at KISP - class C. I like it. Very professional people. Itis
nice to have radar services as the default and good for IFR flights
instead of going non towered.

I was at KPHF - that was a great class D.

"Tim" wrote in message
...

I have been to many fine class D airports. I would take most over the
uncontrolled fields I have been. Cowboys for sure at the uncontrolled
airport near me. I was put on a waiting list at KFRG - glad I decided to
skip that. It is too busy - busier than the class c near here and the
controllers are rude. Then went to KHWV - that is a dangerous place to
fly - non-towered - insane amounts of scary piloting there and I am
finally at KISP - class C. I like it. Very professional people. Itis
nice to have radar services as the default and good for IFR flights
instead of going non towered.

I agree about KFRG, the controllers are regulars at being jerks, I think
mostly because they are underqualified for what they have to deal with. I
was put in a hold over the bridge near the shore for 30 minutes with 10
other planes all looking to not crash into each other. I was glad for the
TIS-A that day. Finally I headed north and called up from the northeast
where I was promptly let into the pattern.

I trained and was based at KHPN and they have more traffic and a more
difficult mix what with students, spamcans, corporates and commuter
airliners. They rarely got surly and were much more accomodating. Perhaps
KFRG needs NY Approach to assign a squawk and sequence arrivals like they do
for KHPN.

KISP was always a joy to fly into. Much sleepier than KFRG.

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:57:15 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

I'll take an uncontrolled airport over non-radar Class D, any day of the
week.

I don't see it that way. Class D can be no worse than an uncontrolled
airport. It can be better.

But I do agree that a pilot is not absolved of situational awareness by
being in class D airspace, and too many pilot's fail to realize this.

I've posted this here before, but I think it worth repeating: the last
flight I took right-seat with a particular someone was when we were
approaching a class D and we'd a clear view of traffic on climb-out that
we knew from radio calls was closed traffic. That traffic and we were
destined to reach downwind at about the same time.

I suggested to my friend that he deviate a little so as to come into the
pattern behind that traffic. He said that it wasn't necessary as the
tower would keep us apart.

- Andrew

I don't see it that way. Class D can be no worse than an uncontrolled
airport. It can be better.

Class Delta can be MUCH worse than "uncontrolled", in my experience,
because:

a) You've got a guy in the tower with binoculars trying to see and
control too many things going on.

b) You've got too many pilots reporting "5 north of the field" when
they are *really* 5 EAST of the field (for example), making it
impossible for our hapless binocular-equipped controller to keep track
of traffic effectively.

At an uncontrolled airport, everyone KNOWS they are on their own, and
events transpire accordingly and (mostly) predictably. In Class D'oh
airspace, on the other hand, too many pilots believe that the
controller is actually controlling the airspace, when, in fact, he is
not.

This type of confusion is a recipe for conflicts -- and I've seen them
often.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
Class Delta can be MUCH worse than "uncontrolled", in my experience,
because:
snip
This type of confusion is a recipe for conflicts -- and I've seen them
often.

In non-radar D, very much so. You have to be on the ball all the time
and be sure to make precise radio calls. However, with radar coverage, D
is a whole new ballgame. Out here in the boonies (heretofore known as
"the LA basin" ), almost all the controlled airports either carry
radar themselves or can tap into them, and so controlled flight is a
breeze (and the controllers really do administer their airspace, with
xpndr checks and traffic reports, as well as non-talking violators).

Contrariwise, uncontrolled space can be a zoo, with a high traffic
density, and weekend warriors that don't (or won't) follow proper
procedure, in the cockpit or on the radio. You'll get lots of people
that, for example, won't depart the pattern on the downwind (nearly had
a from-behind midair with someone in an experimental twice my speed
because he thought he could depart via the upwind), or omitting initial
position calls, calls to final, calls clear of runway, omitting the
ident, etc. etc. etc. Add in some jet traffic along with the standard
piston assortment, and things can get ugly, really fast.

So, I think it's all a matter of degrees and personal experience at its
essence, just like having a bad time in Class C can sour your attitude
for that 'space.

TheSmokingGnu

TheSmokingGnu wrote:
You'll get lots of people
that, for example, won't depart the pattern on the downwind (nearly had
a from-behind midair with someone in an experimental twice my speed
because he thought he could depart via the upwind),

What's wrong with departing via the upwind?

.... Alan
--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com