Radio Replacement

In article ,
"Dan Luke" wrote:
Although an interesting anecdote, absolutely useless I think for
considering what radio to put in the plane in question.


The point was not about getting anywhere near the money back as what was
spent on it (sic).

The point is that an older airplane without a 430 is more difficult to
sell
than one so equipped; hardly a useless consideration when considering a
NAV/COM upgrade.


Um, I don't see how it is a good thing to throw money away just so that the
plane sells... If, at some time the owner wants to sell, he/she can always
put it in the panel or reduce the price.

Spending 12k on a 430 and then getting maybe 1k more on the sale over what
was in the panel originally is not really worth it - you are doing yourself
no favors.

You're still not getting it.

To me, it doesn't make sense to agonize over buying (or selling) a plane
based on whether it has a 430 in it or not. In my case, even if I had
the 430, there would be folks who wouldn't look at the plane because it
doesn't have leather, or it doesn't have a newer audio panel, or it
doesn't have an autopilot, or it doesn't have one thing or another that
they're looking for. If I was looking at a plane, avionics would be one
of the last things I'd look at, and when I did look at avionics, I'd
negotiate the price down if I felt that avionics work was needed. At
that point, it would be up to the seller to determine whether there was
a market for his plane at his asking price.

The reality is that, despite what some people may think, a 430 is not
required equipment in an airplane these days, even if you fly IFR.
There may be folks whose use of the plane will benefit from an IFR GPS,
but my guess is that it is a true requirement for very few.



JKG

The reality is that, despite what some people may think, a 430 is not
required equipment in an airplane these days, even if you fly IFR.

The 430 today is what the Loran was when I started flying. If you
didn't have an in-panel Loran receiver in your panel in the early
'90s, you didn't have a desireable aircraft.

Now, of course, they are all boat anchors (as the 430 will be in ten
years) -- but back then, they were EVERYTHING.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:

To me, it doesn't make sense to agonize over buying (or selling) a plane
based on whether it has a 430 in it or not. In my case, even if I had
the 430, there would be folks who wouldn't look at the plane because it
doesn't have leather, or it doesn't have a newer audio panel, or it
doesn't have an autopilot, or it doesn't have one thing or another that
they're looking for.

Wait 'til you're actually trying to sell and you might feel differently. When
I first tried to sell the plane a couple of years ago, I talked to a dealer
about trading up. His first question about my airplane? "Does it have a
430?"

If I was looking at a plane, avionics would be one
of the last things I'd look at, and when I did look at avionics, I'd
negotiate the price down if I felt that avionics work was needed. At
that point, it would be up to the seller to determine whether there was
a market for his plane at his asking price.

The reality is that, despite what some people may think, a 430 is not
required equipment in an airplane these days,

When you're selling, what people think is everything.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:
"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:


To me, it doesn't make sense to agonize over buying (or selling) a plane
based on whether it has a 430 in it or not. In my case, even if I had
the 430, there would be folks who wouldn't look at the plane because it
doesn't have leather, or it doesn't have a newer audio panel, or it
doesn't have an autopilot, or it doesn't have one thing or another that
they're looking for.


Wait 'til you're actually trying to sell and you might feel differently. When
I first tried to sell the plane a couple of years ago, I talked to a dealer
about trading up. His first question about my airplane? "Does it have a
430?"


If I was looking at a plane, avionics would be one
of the last things I'd look at, and when I did look at avionics, I'd
negotiate the price down if I felt that avionics work was needed. At
that point, it would be up to the seller to determine whether there was
a market for his plane at his asking price.

The reality is that, despite what some people may think, a 430 is not
required equipment in an airplane these days,


When you're selling, what people think is everything.



SO let me get this straight: You spend $12k just to make the plane
desirable - the OP clearly stated he didn't need the equipment. Then
the buyers will pay maybe 1k to 2k over the price of the plane without
that 430 in it. And this is good advice?

Thanks, I'll pass. I can navigate with 2 VORs just fine.

"Tim" wrote:



When you're selling, what people think is everything.



SO let me get this straight: You spend $12k just to make the plane
desirable - the OP clearly stated he didn't need the equipment. Then the
buyers will pay maybe 1k to 2k over the price of the plane without that 430
in it. And this is good advice?

No, you don't have this straight. I'm not saying you will recover all the
cost of the upgrade. (And BTW, where did you get that 1k to 2k figure? I
suspect you made it up.) I'm saying that some buyers will not even *consider*
an airplane without a 430.

Jonathan did not mention in his OP that he does not have any intention of
selling the plane; that's why I offered the experience with a buyer for his
consideration.

Thanks, I'll pass. I can navigate with 2 VORs just fine.

No doubt you wear a scarf and leather helmet, too.

Some pilots need to fly GPS instrument approaches; try doing that with 2
VORs.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:
"Tim" wrote:



When you're selling, what people think is everything.



SO let me get this straight: You spend $12k just to make the plane
desirable - the OP clearly stated he didn't need the equipment. Then the
buyers will pay maybe 1k to 2k over the price of the plane without that 430
in it. And this is good advice?


No, you don't have this straight. I'm not saying you will recover all the
cost of the upgrade. (And BTW, where did you get that 1k to 2k figure? I
suspect you made it up.) I'm saying that some buyers will not even *consider*
an airplane without a 430.

If the seller wishes to sell the plane at that point then he can
consider it, but putting in technology that is already old for some
possible buyers is not a good reason to get the avionics.

You are totally missing the point. Who cares if the plane is passed
over if the money you spent on the gps is lost. The OP stated he did
not need/want the GPS and it was pricey. Why pay for it - all lost
money - if one does not want/need it. There are plenty of buyers out
there who do not want to pay the marginal extra for the GPS, or they
would rather put in a newer model.

So how is your advice good - you agree that the cost is not recoverable
in a sale. So what good is it to sell the plane at a huge loss? I am
guessing based on the information in the post that the plane is probably
in the 40k to 60k range. You are advocating spending 1/4 of that for a
radio/gps which won't get more than a few grand in return in the sale.

I respectfully suggest that DISCOUNTING the sale without the gps is an
easier way to sell the plane and will lose the seller less money.


Jonathan did not mention in his OP that he does not have any intention of
selling the plane; that's why I offered the experience with a buyer for his
consideration.


Thanks, I'll pass. I can navigate with 2 VORs just fine.


No doubt you wear a scarf and leather helmet, too.

Um, no, I know where I am without needing a moving map with pretty
little airplane pictures on it.


Some pilots need to fly GPS instrument approaches; try doing that with 2
VORs.

No thanks, I'll take an ILS over a GPS approach any day.

Tim,

Then
the buyers will pay maybe 1k to 2k over the price of the plane without
that 430 in it.


Uh, I think the point is whether a buyer will consider the plane at all,
no matter the price.

And as a hint: you might just want to consider those anger control
pills...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Tim,


Then
the buyers will pay maybe 1k to 2k over the price of the plane without
that 430 in it.



Uh, I think the point is whether a buyer will consider the plane at all,
no matter the price.

And as a hint: you might just want to consider those anger control
pills...



I am still trying to figure out why buyers enter into the whole
conversation at all. The OP never made andy statements about selling,
nor did he say he wanted a GPS.

It is undisputed that owners will never recoup the cost of installation.
So, again, why the heck would you put one in just to make it
attractive to buyers?

Anger management pills? Who's angry?

I think it is a 'whole enchilada' thing. If you are spending the money
to replace anyway, it might be worth considering spending a little more
to put in added capability that you might find yourself needing sometime
in the future. In the case where you do end up needing to sell, the
relatively small delta cost to get more capability that you might or
might not use now might be worth it when it comes time to sell. Think
of it as the delta for the GPS install, not the full cost, if you are
already replacing a radio.

If I were replacing my airplane today, I also would not consider one
without an IFR GPS. On the other hand, I'm not rushing out to replace
my servicable dual VOR, dual glideslope and Loran stack with a GPS unit.
I'll strongly consider it when the time comes that my radios break and
are not economically repairable, however. If it happened today, I'd
probably hold off on a GPS upgrade to see how the next gen ATC falls
out, as I'd hate to have to change out new to me equipment to meet new
equipment requirements such as ADSB in a few years.

Ray Andraka wrote:

I think it is a 'whole enchilada' thing. If you are spending the money
to replace anyway, it might be worth considering spending a little more
to put in added capability that you might find yourself needing sometime
in the future. In the case where you do end up needing to sell, the
relatively small delta cost to get more capability that you might or
might not use now might be worth it when it comes time to sell. Think
of it as the delta for the GPS install, not the full cost, if you are
already replacing a radio.

If I were replacing my airplane today, I also would not consider one
without an IFR GPS. On the other hand, I'm not rushing out to replace
my servicable dual VOR, dual glideslope and Loran stack with a GPS unit.
I'll strongly consider it when the time comes that my radios break and
are not economically repairable, however. If it happened today, I'd
probably hold off on a GPS upgrade to see how the next gen ATC falls
out, as I'd hate to have to change out new to me equipment to meet new
equipment requirements such as ADSB in a few years.

You use words like "a little more." You also state if it was you you
would hold out. But you are also in the same post trying to suggest my
comments are off base?

This makes sense if the marginal cost difference was a couple grand, but
we're talking 5 to 7 times the cost to replace it - not just a little
bit of money! A delta of 10% to even 100% is reasonable, but come on, 5
to 7 times the amount? That's ludicrous. When the plane MAY be sold
later on, that piece of avionics that cost 12k or more to put in, will
net negative dollars and will not be the latest and greatest thing that
everyone is looking for.

People look for those radios already in the plane because they know they
are getting a bargain on the installation. So, you are advocating the
owner in this case to be a sucker so all those shopping for his plane in
the future can take advantage of his already spending waaay too much
money and giving him zip in return.

This is the part that I have trouble with. It is plain old bad advice.
Now, if the OP said he was looking to get a GPS in the first place,
then I think the advic is right. But he did not say that.

Jay Honeck and a few others had good advice. Replacement slide in.
Going with a 12k radio just because other people like it is ridiculous.