Growth in soaring

On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:49:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Price is
LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour

Pretty amazing prices (I think at Soissons it's significantly
cheaper). I definitely couldn't have afforded to start up gliding in
your club, nor would I have fun today if I calculated the cost for a
simple 500 km triangle...


So i clearly see something of the order of 2000 euros/year, and i am
quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
expensive in the Alps.

I wonder what you are doing with all that money. Do you need to rent
your airfield?

In my club (with gliders at least as good as yours) the total cost per
year doesn't exceed 600 Euros per year.


Bye
Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:49:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Price is
LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour

Pretty amazing prices (I think at Soissons it's significantly

Well it is certainly cheaper where it is impossible to fly. If i look at
Vinon's tarifs
http://www.vinon-soaring.fr
they are exactly of the same order, except the complete "forfait" is
more expensive:
"FORFAIT HEURES ILLIMITEES Toutes machines : 2200 euros".

cheaper). I definitely couldn't have afforded to start up gliding in
your club, nor would I have fun today if I calculated the cost for a
simple 500 km triangle...

Happy to share this deduction with you. This is precisely the point a
lot of people are contesting.



So i clearly see something of the order of 2000 euros/year, and i am
quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
expensive in the Alps.

I wonder what you are doing with all that money. Do you need to rent
your airfield?

I have been member of this club, but mainly of Buno-Bonnevaux, which is
more expensive but has paid people to do instruction and work on gliders
in winter. In my experience, pure volunteer organizations are very
unfriendly, and one is happier in more professional ones, even paying
more. Anyways, both these clubs have to rent the airfield, of course,
pay for cutting grass, for water and electricity, for the installations,
for the periodic vists of the gliders, and planes, for reparations, and
whatever. Thsese clubs provide detailed expenses to members and i have
never seen anything suspicious.


In my club (with gliders at least as good as yours) the total cost per
year doesn't exceed 600 Euros per year.


Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.



Bye
Andreas

--

Michel TALON

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:02 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.

This is what puzzles me, too - German clubs have absolutely no aids
from German authorities. On the other hand, we don't employ anyone at
all - all work is done by the members of the club.

From Soissons (which is basically a pure volunteer-driven club) they
had to pay one full-time employee who took care of the "tower",
airfield and club house. This one guy alone costs more than my club's
entire fleet - maybe this is the difference?


Bye
Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:21:02 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.

This is what puzzles me, too - German clubs have absolutely no aids
from German authorities. On the other hand, we don't employ anyone at
all - all work is done by the members of the club.

From Soissons (which is basically a pure volunteer-driven club) they
had to pay one full-time employee who took care of the "tower",
airfield and club house. This one guy alone costs more than my club's
entire fleet - maybe this is the difference?

Sincerely i don't know. At" Moret sur Loing" (CVVFR) there is absolutely
nobody employed, so this cannot be the explanation of the numbers i have
shown. As far as i know, an important part of the budget goes into
building provisions to buy new gliders. If you want to maintain your
fleet in reasonably current state, you have to regularly sell old
gliders and buy new ones, which are of course more expensive than the old
ones you sold. So you have to introduce an input stream of cash, or you
have to borrow money, which means paying twice the amount you would have
paid if you had made economies. As far as i know the people running the
CVVFR were very conscious of this necessity, and have always made
provisions. Of course one accident, broken glider, etc. ruins part of
these provisions. I think an important factor is also the question of
towing. If you have planes, first towing fees introduce an important
burden for users, but also for the club, periodic visits are very
expensive, etc. But the clubs i know are not in a position to use
winches because the airfields are too small.



Bye
Andreas

--

Michel TALON

On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:11:16 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Sincerely i don't know. At" Moret sur Loing" (CVVFR) there is absolutely
nobody employed, so this cannot be the explanation of the numbers i have
shown.

Hmmm...

As far as i know, an important part of the budget goes into
building provisions to buy new gliders.

.... the same here...

If you want to maintain your
fleet in reasonably current state, you have to regularly sell old
gliders and buy new ones, which are of course more expensive than the old
ones you sold.

Yes. But that's manageable, too.


So you have to introduce an input stream of cash, or you
have to borrow money, which means paying twice the amount you would have
paid if you had made economies.

In my club the members (instead of a bank) award low-interest loans
to the club - this works extremely well.


As far as i know the people running the
CVVFR were very conscious of this necessity, and have always made
provisions. Of course one accident, broken glider, etc. ruins part of
these provisions.

Hmmm... no insurances?
The major part of my club's income goes directly to the physical
damage insurance - each of our gliders is insured.

I think an important factor is also the question of
towing. If you have planes, first towing fees introduce an important
burden for users, but also for the club, periodic visits are very
expensive, etc. But the clubs i know are not in a position to use
winches because the airfields are too small.

Indeed - aerotows are a major factor that makes gliding expensive (not
only in France...), but I've seen many hige French airfields that
could have have easily coped with winch operations.
Soissons even had a winch, but never used (and eventually sold) it.


Bye
Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:11:16 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Sincerely i don't know. At" Moret sur Loing" (CVVFR) there is absolutely
nobody employed, so this cannot be the explanation of the numbers i have
shown.

Hmmm...

As far as i know, an important part of the budget goes into
building provisions to buy new gliders.

... the same here...

If you want to maintain your
fleet in reasonably current state, you have to regularly sell old
gliders and buy new ones, which are of course more expensive than the old
ones you sold.

Yes. But that's manageable, too.


So you have to introduce an input stream of cash, or you
have to borrow money, which means paying twice the amount you would have
paid if you had made economies.

In my club the members (instead of a bank) award low-interest loans
to the club - this works extremely well.


As far as i know the people running the
CVVFR were very conscious of this necessity, and have always made
provisions. Of course one accident, broken glider, etc. ruins part of
these provisions.

Hmmm... no insurances?
The major part of my club's income goes directly to the physical
damage insurance - each of our gliders is insured.

I think an important factor is also the question of
towing. If you have planes, first towing fees introduce an important
burden for users, but also for the club, periodic visits are very
expensive, etc. But the clubs i know are not in a position to use
winches because the airfields are too small.

Indeed - aerotows are a major factor that makes gliding expensive (not
only in France...), but I've seen many hige French airfields that
could have have easily coped with winch operations.
Soissons even had a winch, but never used (and eventually sold) it.

How does airfield ownership/rental affect the situation in Germany and
France?

In the UK club two-seat insurance has rocketed over the last couple of
years to the point that my club can no longer afford to operate our T.21
- its the third party cover, not the hull insurance, that's hit clubs
here. The T.21 is of course worth nothing but, as its only flown on nice
summer days its 3rd party insurance rate per hour is huge.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 15:19:06 +0000, Martin Gregorie
wrote:


How does airfield ownership/rental affect the situation in Germany and
France?

In Germany there is a wide variety of airfield usage, ranging from
flying on active German Airforce airfields (paying very little rent)
over rented grass strips to own airfields (that became available after
1990 when many military installations in Germany were shut down and
their real estates were sold).

In Germany usually the highest priority of a gliding club is to keep
the costs for gliding low, while in France I often see comparatively
huge glider fleets for few active pilots, resulting in far higher
total operating costs.


In the UK club two-seat insurance has rocketed over the last couple of
years to the point that my club can no longer afford to operate our T.21
- its the third party cover, not the hull insurance, that's hit clubs
here. The T.21 is of course worth nothing but, as its only flown on nice
summer days its 3rd party insurance rate per hour is huge.

The fees for 3rd-party insurances have risen in Germany, too, but
overall they're still affordable.

Bye
Andreas

There is almost no aid from the German government. However, everey single
work is done by volunteers (including building the very infrastructe) and
mostly, launching is done by a winch.
Moreover, clubs often started out to build their first (wooden) gliders
themselves, and than reselling/renewing on regular intervalls so that after
50 years of that process, their capital base is pretty good (owning the
equipments, no loans, often owning the airfield).
One of the main sources for that is that Germany has lost both wars, and
powered flight was forbidden for years. The result is that anybody wanted to
fly turned to gliding... and even today, the density of glider pilots as 3
times higher than in France (make that: 3 times more volunteer work force
available to set up things).

"Michel Talon" wrote in message
...
Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:49:41 +0000 (UTC),
(Michel Talon) wrote:

Price is
LS4-Janus-Pegase 17,40 euros/hour
LS 8, 15, 18 mètres 23,50 euros/hour
Duo-Discus 30,60 euros/hour

Pretty amazing prices (I think at Soissons it's significantly

Well it is certainly cheaper where it is impossible to fly. If i look at
Vinon's tarifs
http://www.vinon-soaring.fr
they are exactly of the same order, except the complete "forfait" is
more expensive:
"FORFAIT HEURES ILLIMITEES Toutes machines : 2200 euros".

cheaper). I definitely couldn't have afforded to start up gliding in
your club, nor would I have fun today if I calculated the cost for a
simple 500 km triangle...

Happy to share this deduction with you. This is precisely the point a
lot of people are contesting.



So i clearly see something of the order of 2000 euros/year, and i am
quite sure you will have hard time to find less expensive while still
decent around Paris - and by the way i doubt very much it is less
expensive in the Alps.

I wonder what you are doing with all that money. Do you need to rent
your airfield?

I have been member of this club, but mainly of Buno-Bonnevaux, which is
more expensive but has paid people to do instruction and work on gliders
in winter. In my experience, pure volunteer organizations are very
unfriendly, and one is happier in more professional ones, even paying
more. Anyways, both these clubs have to rent the airfield, of course,
pay for cutting grass, for water and electricity, for the installations,
for the periodic vists of the gliders, and planes, for reparations, and
whatever. Thsese clubs provide detailed expenses to members and i have
never seen anything suspicious.


In my club (with gliders at least as good as yours) the total cost per
year doesn't exceed 600 Euros per year.


Yes it is not the first time i hear that prices are infinitely less in
Germany. I have never understood how it is possible, since, as i said,
the above French prices can be justified very easily, and are
homogeneous among similar big clubs with modern fleet. Perhaps you have
enormous aids from german state that you are not aware of. From what i
have been told, things are worse in Italy, etc.



Bye
Andreas

--

Michel TALON