Primary training in a Hi Perf complex acft

Hi Matt;
One example of what you folks are discussing on this thread would be the
Paris Texas operation back in the sixties run by Junior Burchinal.
(Issac Newton to his friends :-)
Junior would take you from not knowing anything at all, right though a
complete checkout in his Mustang or his Bearcat, or several other
military airplanes.
We always considered Junior to be a die hard gambler, but in reality, he
was actually a VERY good pilot and instructor. He did keep a real close
rein on those he checked out though and all the flying was done in and
around his dirt strip near Paris. The bottom line on Junior was that
anyone with the bucks could walk through the door and solo in a P51 or
any of the other airplanes in Juniors stable of "patched up old war
birds still flying"
You would think the name of this game would simply be the money, and
admittedly, many of those who went through Junior's "program" had deep
pockets, but I can tell you that his operation, although a bit rusty and
dusty, was a first rate teaching and flying setup.
Junior's program for the 51 for example was (if I remember right anyway
:-) 10 hours in the Stearman, then 10 hours in the T6; 5 in front, then
5 in the back to get used to having that nose out there in front of you.
So you basically have a 20 hour program ending in a P51 checkout.
My personal opinion on this from my own experience doing checkouts and
giving dual in this type of situation, is that its not all that out of
line.
You can start someone out in a complex high performance airplane and
take them right through the program. Its harder for sure, and there's a
bit more to learn going through, but the bottom line is that it can, and
most certainly has been done many times, and successfully too.
I'm jogging my memory a bit now, but to my knowledge, Burchinal's
operation had a great safety record. I don't recall a major incident
involving someone who went through his program.
On the GA side of things;
I've had several people who bought their own high performance airplanes
before starting instruction and then went on with me from the beginning
on through the program. Solo took a few hours more, but after that, all
was basically normal from there. I wouldn't say it was all that much
more difficult teaching them in these airplanes than it would have been
in a 150 Cessna or a 140 Cherokee.
In the end, it all depends on the same things in this scenario that it
does in a non- high performance airplane;
1.The motivation of both the student and the instructor
2.The competence of the instructor
One side note to all this, and its strictly a personal observation based
on my own experience flying many types of airplanes; I have actually
found high performance airplanes easier to fly all things considered,
than planes with limited performance. (In teaching turn dynamics in the
T38 for example, you simply tell them to point the airplane where you
want it to go :-))
Dudley Henriques

Matt Barrow wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
It is all relative, the mind will adjust in a few minutes to
a faster airplane.



To a point, yes , most will. Whether it takes "minutes" is questionable.

Some can never make the adjustment to even 152/172 speeds.

Matt B.

Dudley Henriques wrote:
One example of what you folks are discussing on this thread would be
the Paris Texas operation back in the sixties run by Junior Burchinal.
(Issac Newton to his friends :-)
Junior would take you from not knowing anything at all, right though a
complete checkout in his Mustang or his Bearcat, or several other
military airplanes.

Funny you should mention Burchinal - I recently finished reading "Zero 3
Bravo" by Mariana Gosnell (about a cross-country flight in her Luscombe
Silvaire) and she has a chapter on meeting him and getting a chance to
fly with him in a T-33. Quite a character! Claimed to be a reformed
boozer (claimed to drink to get his courage up to fly - which he wanted
to do more than anything in the world). A few quotes from the book:

Burchinal:
'"One day I was flying home from Dallas in in a ragwing Luscombe[!] I'd
cracked up the day before landing in a fog when I was half drunk and
stepped on the brakes too hard. I put a cloth over the torn part of the
windshield, had a couple swigs of tequila, and took off."'

(And the reason one person came to view his B-17

'One Israeli made a beeline for the B-17 and started crying as soon as
he sat in the pilot's seat. He told Burchinal why. During World War II
his parents, who were Jewish, hid him and his little sister under the
floor of their house in Holland and told them if they heard a noise in
the night they should run away to a cave that had been prepared for
them. One night they did hear a noise. "The Gestapo came to the house
and slit his parents' throats," said Burchinal. "He and his sister ran
away and hid in the cave. The cave was on a hillside and during the day
they usually stayed there but at night they'd sneak down to the valley
and take food from people's gardens. One day they were standing outside
and saw Germans with bloodhounds climbing up the hill toward them. They
stood hugging each other. They were sure this was the end of their
lives. But instead of a few shots they heard thousands of rounds of
ammunition. Then they saw a B-17 flying up the hillside, shooting at
every German in sight. When it passed them the pilot waved. The Israeli
said he'd never forget that as long as he lived."'

One story, out of several close calls, related in the book:
'Once during a takeoff in the P-38 the canopy's emergency latch came off
and then the canopy itself, tearing loose the top of Burchinal's and a
student's scalps. "By the time they landed, the student's scalp was
flapping in the slipstream," said Bo. (Bo is his son.)

A bunch of other tales, some tall, squeezed into that 14 page chapter.
(E.g. Mariana met the woman from Paris, France who Burchinal claimed was
the first female civilian to solo a T-33. How he came to have his own
chapel, and so on.)

Junior's operation gave the FAA fits. Nobody could figure out how he did
what he did without accidents, but he did :-) The airplanes didn't look
all that hot either, but he kept them in flying condition and
mechanically they were fine.
Junior was just a character who drove the main stream folks and the big
money boys crazy. He loved every minute of it too :-))
In the end analysis, what Junior did for aviation was actually
substantial. Along with his "you got the bucks, I got the Mustang"
operation, he also served as an extremely competent checkout "service"
for the guys with deep pockets who owned WW2 aircraft simply because
they had the bucks to do so. I, along with a ton of the guys who along
with me knew a little bit about this end of the business all agree that
what Junior did that was valuable was to keep these people with money
and little else in the way of experience from killing themselves in
their own airplanes. Many of these big money folks literally owe their
lives to Burchinal. By the time he got through with them, they had a
fighting chance to stay alive in their P51's and F8F's. :-))
Dudley Henriques

Jim Logajan wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
One example of what you folks are discussing on this thread would be
the Paris Texas operation back in the sixties run by Junior Burchinal.
(Issac Newton to his friends :-)
Junior would take you from not knowing anything at all, right though a
complete checkout in his Mustang or his Bearcat, or several other
military airplanes.

Funny you should mention Burchinal - I recently finished reading "Zero 3
Bravo" by Mariana Gosnell (about a cross-country flight in her Luscombe
Silvaire) and she has a chapter on meeting him and getting a chance to
fly with him in a T-33. Quite a character! Claimed to be a reformed
boozer (claimed to drink to get his courage up to fly - which he wanted
to do more than anything in the world). A few quotes from the book:

Burchinal:
'"One day I was flying home from Dallas in in a ragwing Luscombe[!] I'd
cracked up the day before landing in a fog when I was half drunk and
stepped on the brakes too hard. I put a cloth over the torn part of the
windshield, had a couple swigs of tequila, and took off."'

(And the reason one person came to view his B-17

'One Israeli made a beeline for the B-17 and started crying as soon as
he sat in the pilot's seat. He told Burchinal why. During World War II
his parents, who were Jewish, hid him and his little sister under the
floor of their house in Holland and told them if they heard a noise in
the night they should run away to a cave that had been prepared for
them. One night they did hear a noise. "The Gestapo came to the house
and slit his parents' throats," said Burchinal. "He and his sister ran
away and hid in the cave. The cave was on a hillside and during the day
they usually stayed there but at night they'd sneak down to the valley
and take food from people's gardens. One day they were standing outside
and saw Germans with bloodhounds climbing up the hill toward them. They
stood hugging each other. They were sure this was the end of their
lives. But instead of a few shots they heard thousands of rounds of
ammunition. Then they saw a B-17 flying up the hillside, shooting at
every German in sight. When it passed them the pilot waved. The Israeli
said he'd never forget that as long as he lived."'

One story, out of several close calls, related in the book:
'Once during a takeoff in the P-38 the canopy's emergency latch came off
and then the canopy itself, tearing loose the top of Burchinal's and a
student's scalps. "By the time they landed, the student's scalp was
flapping in the slipstream," said Bo. (Bo is his son.)

A bunch of other tales, some tall, squeezed into that 14 page chapter.
(E.g. Mariana met the woman from Paris, France who Burchinal claimed was
the first female civilian to solo a T-33. How he came to have his own
chapel, and so on.)

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...

: Junior's program for the 51 for example was (if I remember right anyway
::-) 10 hours in the Stearman, then 10 hours in the T6; 5 in front, then
: 5 in the back to get used to having that nose out there in front of you.
: So you basically have a 20 hour program ending in a P51 checkout.
: My personal opinion on this from my own experience doing checkouts and
: giving dual in this type of situation, is that its not all that out of
: line.
:

How many hours did pilots usually have back during WWII?

Brits had very few hours, they started in a basic trainer
like the Moth and flew combat after just a few hours in the
Hurricanes and Spitfires. I have a cousin who entered
combat in a Spitfire with less than 10 hours training in the
Spitfire. Don't know his total time at that point.

American pilots had time in Cubs, Waco and Stearmans, then
T6 and finally the combat planes, they would have 200-250
hours when assigned to combat, we had the time and resources
to do it right.


"Blueskies" wrote in message
...
|
| "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
|
| : Junior's program for the 51 for example was (if I
remember right anyway
| ::-) 10 hours in the Stearman, then 10 hours in the T6; 5
in front, then
| : 5 in the back to get used to having that nose out there
in front of you.
| : So you basically have a 20 hour program ending in a P51
checkout.
| : My personal opinion on this from my own experience doing
checkouts and
| : giving dual in this type of situation, is that its not
all that out of
| : line.
| :
|
| How many hours did pilots usually have back during WWII?
|
|

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 14:40:11 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:
snip

I've had several people who bought their own high performance airplanes
before starting instruction and then went on with me from the beginning
on through the program. Solo took a few hours more, but after that, all
was basically normal from there. I wouldn't say it was all that much
more difficult teaching them in these airplanes than it would have been
in a 150 Cessna or a 140 Cherokee.
In the end, it all depends on the same things in this scenario that it
does in a non- high performance airplane;
1.The motivation of both the student and the instructor
2.The competence of the instructor

snip

Pretty much says it all.

As an alleged technician, my initial "training" was flying right seat
in whatever freighthog was flying with whichever freightdog that had
been flying all day and wanted someone to ride along half the night.

Again, as an alleged technician, the systems side of " learning" in a
complex, high performance aircraft was pretty much a non-event.

I'm sure that you understand that a little higher level of knowledge
is needed to efficiently troubleshoot and maintain a system than to
fly behind it (inside it?).

Finally did my official primary training in a 7AC, then a PA38-112,
but had more real-life "lessons" in complex, high performance singles
(& twins) than the traditional trainer.

Most of these "lessons" were from professional pilots with 5K-10K
hours.

Would also agree that if one can keep up with the airplane, most c h-p
singles are easier to fly with regard to the overall "harmony" of the
flight controls, and from having plenty of power-opposed to having
barely enuff.

Always enjoy reading your stuff, sorta wish I coulda gotten into
warbirds instead of GA 25 years ago...

Regards;

TC

wrote:

Always enjoy reading your stuff, sorta wish I coulda gotten into
warbirds instead of GA 25 years ago...

Regards;

TC

Thank you.
If its any consolation on the Warbirds, go to bed tonight knowing you
are MUCH, MUCH richer than you would have been flying these things.
:-))
Dudley Henriques