A tower-induced go-round

"Jose" wrote in message
t...

I haven't looked over the procedure in question, and the "problem I have"
isn't with the procedure, it's with the =idea= that a few locals can dummy
up a procedure that is in conflict with generally accepted flying
procedures (like the AIM) and with FAA mandated procedures (like an ODP if
it applies).


TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES

SW-3
07074


UPLAND, CA
CABLE

TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 6, 300-1 or std. with a min. climb of 240' per NM to
1900.

DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 6, climbing right turn. Rwy 24, climbing left turn.
All aircraft climb direct PDZ VORTAC. Aircraft departing PDZ R-091 CW R-140
and R-231 CW R-280 climb on course. All others continue climb in PDZ holding
pattern (E, right turns, 258° inbound) to cross PDZ VORTAC at or above:
R-281 CW R-090, 6700; R-141 CW R-230, 4000.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Jose" wrote in message
t...

I haven't looked over the procedure in question, and the "problem I have"
isn't with the procedure, it's with the =idea= that a few locals can dummy
up a procedure that is in conflict with generally accepted flying
procedures (like the AIM) and with FAA mandated procedures (like an ODP if
it applies).


TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES

SW-3
07074


UPLAND, CA
CABLE

TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 6, 300-1 or std. with a min. climb of 240' per NM to
1900.

DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 6, climbing right turn. Rwy 24, climbing left turn.
All aircraft climb direct PDZ VORTAC. Aircraft departing PDZ R-091 CW R-140
and R-231 CW R-280 climb on course. All others continue climb in PDZ holding
pattern (E, right turns, 258? inbound) to cross PDZ VORTAC at or above:
R-281 CW R-090, 6700; R-141 CW R-230, 4000.

Yep, those are the IFR procedures.

Which part of the local procedures being for VFR are you having trouble
understanding?

The 24 IFR departure is identical to the 24 VFR departure to the South
except the IFR departure references a VORTAC while the VFR departure
references a VFR landmark. The path in the area of the airport is the
same in both cases.

The 6 IFR departure does not conflict with any VFR procedure.

The 6 IFR departure takes you immediately into class C airspace, while
the 6 VFR departure takes you away from it.

The 6 IFR departure would be illegal to do without a radio, and if
you did it with a radio, while legal, it would **** of the class C
tower which is expecting you to use the VFR procedure and call them
when you get close to midfield if you intend to cross their airspace.

The tower would direct you to follow a path that is roughly the same
as the VFR departure path though perhaps inside their airspace while
the VFR path keeps you out of it.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message
...

Yep, those are the IFR procedures.

Which part of the local procedures being for VFR are you having trouble
understanding?


None. What made you think I did? Did you know the local procedures were
for VFR operations before you joined this discussion?



The 6 IFR departure would be illegal to do without a radio, and if
you did it with a radio, while legal, it would **** of the class C
tower which is expecting you to use the VFR procedure and call them
when you get close to midfield if you intend to cross their airspace.


Following an IFR procedure would not **** off the tower and I wouldn't be
calling them at all.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

wrote in message
...

Yep, those are the IFR procedures.

Which part of the local procedures being for VFR are you having trouble
understanding?


None. What made you think I did? Did you know the local procedures were
for VFR operations before you joined this discussion?

Because you keep bringing up the IFR procedures as though they were
relevant to VFR.

Of course I knew local prodedures are VFR; I've always known that.


The 6 IFR departure would be illegal to do without a radio, and if
you did it with a radio, while legal, it would **** of the class C
tower which is expecting you to use the VFR procedure and call them
when you get close to midfield if you intend to cross their airspace.


Following an IFR procedure would not **** off the tower and I wouldn't be
calling them at all.

One more time, we are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

You can't legally fly the IFR departure unless you file IFR and then,
no, you are not talking to the Class C tower, you are talking to the
Class C departure.

Following the IFR procedure while VFR will do a lot more than just
**** off the Class C tower.

Since you don't seem to get it:

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote in message
...

Because you keep bringing up the IFR procedures as though they were
relevant to VFR.

Of course I knew local prodedures are VFR; I've always known that.


If you always knew that why did you initially say they applied to all
operations? Why didn't you identify them as VFR procedures from the start?



One more time, we are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.


You wrote; "The 6 IFR departure would be illegal to do without a radio, and
if you did it with a radio, while legal, it would **** of the class C tower
which is expecting you to use the VFR procedure and call them when you get
close to midfield if you intend to cross their airspace." That sounds like
you're talking about an IFR procedure. If I followed that procedure it
would be during an IFR flight with an IFR clearance and it would not affect
the Class C tower in any way.



You can't legally fly the IFR departure unless you file IFR and then,
no, you are not talking to the Class C tower, you are talking to the
Class C departure.


Now you're catching on.



Since you don't seem to get it:

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.

We are talking about following VFR procedures while VFR.


Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?

Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?

Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?

Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?

Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?

Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?

Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?

Why did you not identify them as VFR procedures from the start?