Question for the real pilots

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:28:32 -0600, C Booth wrote
in :

I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to
SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR
clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of
Vegas.

Ground Control doesn't issue other than taxi clearances to they?

Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then
handed off to Nellis aproach.

Were you inside KLAS Class B airspace when you contacted Nellis
Approach?

The controler gives me heading and asks
intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to
repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back.

If she's vectoring you, I believe it is her responsibility to clear
your transitions through B, C and D terminal airspace. I'd have to
consult FAAO 7110.65R to be su
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf

I am
squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from
Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a
B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I
have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the
vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I
fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the
middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say,
"Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?"

Perhaps she was a trainee and her trainer called the fact that she had
failed to specifically issue you Clearance into Bravo airspace.

She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened
to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace.

Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if
you get it explicitly.

Needless to
say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored
into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the
clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace,

That's my understanding also.

but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well?

It's all in FAAO 7110.65R
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf

Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

I think it's always prudent to file a NASA form. Not only does it
usually save you from the ordeal of an enforcement action, but the
information you provide is used to make the NAS safer.

I believe the ATC tapes are available for ~15 days. You might phone
Nellis approach and arrange to discuss the incident with the
controller. She would normally have to file an FAA form for action to
be taken. She probably didn't do that, or you would have heard those
other little magic words, "Pleas phone ATC upon landing." At least
you'll get a chance to see what's up.

Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks.

Cbooth
SEL MEL Instrument

Larry Dighera wrote:
Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if
you get it explicitly.

Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be
given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo
airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance.

You can get implied clearance through C and D space if they use your
full callsign, but B is the big special 80,000 lbs. gorilla, and needs
full, explicit clearance.

As to the OP, technically speaking it was mostly your responsibility to
get the clearance, but both parties were really at fault, and no real
harm came because of it, so I wouldn't worry too terribly much.

TheSmokingGnu

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:45:43 -0700, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
:


Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be
given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo
airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance.


Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:45:43 -0700, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
:

Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be
given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo
airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance.


Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

He can't. There's no rule. The controller should issue VFR clerarances
that way however. Obviously IFR clearances aren't going to sound like
that at all.

The pilot is definitely responsible for the bust, but the controller
rules also prohibit the controller from vectoring aircraft into
airspace without coordinating the transition. Of course it fails
all the time.

Ron Natalie writes:

He can't. There's no rule.

Yes, there is. A specific clearance is required, and a specific phraseology
is used.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Larry Dighera writes:

Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

FAR 91.131(a)(1) (necessity of clearance) and 7710.65R 7-9-2(a) (approved
phraseology).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote in
news
Larry Dighera writes:

Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

FAR 91.131(a)(1) (necessity of clearance) and 7710.65R 7-9-2(a) (approved
phraseology).

You're an idiot.


Bertie

Larry Dighera wrote:
Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations
or orders that support your allegation?

Curses! Why must my answers be answered! And by him, of all people!

Regardless, you've got your man, Friday. Book 'em, Danno, and all that.

(I'll stop now, honest)

TheSmokingGnu

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:38:05 -0700, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in
:

Regardless, you've got your man, Friday.

The issue isn't closed until Mr. McNicoll's wry analysis is indelibly
etched in electrons throughout the usenetosphere. :-)

Larry Dighera wrote:
The issue isn't closed until Mr. McNicoll's wry analysis is indelibly
etched in electrons throughout the usenetosphere. :-)

ObReadAs: rye analysis. Keep yer mitts off me samm'iches!

TheSmokingGnu