Sun N Fun '07 Redux

I have a friend who owned a Citation for many years. The insurance was
$90K per year. He also owned a Caravan on amphibs, that ran $45K per
year for insurance. Another friend has a Caravan on wheels, that only
costs $35K per year.




Morgans wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote


Well, Jim, the average Cirrus pilot is paying $10 - $15K annually for
insurance, from what I've been told.

Makes my $1200/year seem positively reasonable.


I had no idea that it was so expensive to insure jets.

I have a hard time seeing how they will ever be able to get the cost down
low enough to make air taxi service with the VLJ's affordable.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:32:07 -0600, Newps wrote:

I have a friend who owned a Citation for many years. The insurance was
$90K per year. He also owned a Caravan on amphibs, that ran $45K per
year for insurance. Another friend has a Caravan on wheels, that only
costs $35K per year.

I can understand the jet (high due to being a jet and the number of
seats) and the Caravan on floats, but on wheels that is almost twice
what they quoted me for a TBM 700 with the Caravan costing less and
being considerably slower.





Morgans wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote


Well, Jim, the average Cirrus pilot is paying $10 - $15K annually for
insurance, from what I've been told.

Makes my $1200/year seem positively reasonable.


I had no idea that it was so expensive to insure jets.

I have a hard time seeing how they will ever be able to get the cost down
low enough to make air taxi service with the VLJ's affordable.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote

I can understand the jet (high due to being a jet and the number of
seats) and the Caravan on floats, but on wheels that is almost twice
what they quoted me for a TBM 700 with the Caravan costing less and
being considerably slower.

Can your justify a jet turbine costing more than a turbo prop? Are not jet
turbine aircraft much more safe, mile per mile?
--
Jim in NC

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:44:33 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger (K8RI)" wrote

I can understand the jet (high due to being a jet and the number of
seats) and the Caravan on floats, but on wheels that is almost twice
what they quoted me for a TBM 700 with the Caravan costing less and
being considerably slower.

Can your justify a jet turbine costing more than a turbo prop? Are not jet
turbine aircraft much more safe, mile per mile?
I'll try:-))

The engines (when treated right) are far more reliable than piston
engines.

The cost comes basically due to the pilot they expect and the
environment in which he/she will be flying. Add to that the type of
recurrency training available and the equipment to be used in that
training.

First you start out with the 150 to 200 MPH mind in a 500 MPH airplane
which is no trivial matter. Any one moving up from say a 172 or
Cherokee to a Bonanza or Mooney (simple to high
performance/complex/retract) will have had a small dose of that.
Typically I fly at 7, or 8 thousand. That means planning ahead by
about 40 miles, or 12 to 13 minutes for descents into approaches. The
jet not only flies faster but higher which means thinking and planning
much farther ahead. Instead of starting my descent from 7 thousand 40
miles out, I'd be starting from the flight levels several hundred
miles out. Staying proficient is also much more involved and
requires flying more. In the TBM 700 I would have been spending at
least as much on recurrency training as I would have on insurance
which was a requirement to maintain the insurance.

A jet also requires much more detailed flight planning based on fuel
burn.

BTW; I've known experienced pilots who had as much or more difficulty
with the take off than the landing in a jet. The jet has a much
greater surplus of power than a piston engine, so making the take off
roll and initial climb at full power while reducing power so you do
not exceed the proper speed for the airport area or blast through your
initial altitude assignment can be quite a challenge.

These were a few of the things I could think of.

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:32:07 -0600, Newps wrote:


I have a friend who owned a Citation for many years. The insurance was
$90K per year. He also owned a Caravan on amphibs, that ran $45K per
year for insurance. Another friend has a Caravan on wheels, that only
costs $35K per year.


I can understand the jet (high due to being a jet and the number of
seats) and the Caravan on floats, but on wheels that is almost twice
what they quoted me for a TBM 700 with the Caravan costing less and
being considerably slower.

The Caravan on wheels price may reflect that it is the company plane.
The company makes small diameter tubing for the auto industry in
Michigan and was a cost effective way of owning a Caravan. I should ask
him what he pays for the Turbine 210, that's a personal bird I believe.

Morgans wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote


Well, Jim, the average Cirrus pilot is paying $10 - $15K annually for
insurance, from what I've been told.

Makes my $1200/year seem positively reasonable.


I had no idea that it was so expensive to insure jets.

I have a hard time seeing how they will ever be able to get the cost down
low enough to make air taxi service with the VLJ's affordable.

Eclipse is quoting around $32K for full coverage on it's 500 for a "fully
qualified pilot" (ie, something around 2000+/500 hour pilot), or $64K for a
newbie.

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ownership/insurance/

Matt Barrow wrote:
Morgans wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote


Well, Jim, the average Cirrus pilot is paying $10 - $15K annually
for insurance, from what I've been told.

Makes my $1200/year seem positively reasonable.


I had no idea that it was so expensive to insure jets.

I have a hard time seeing how they will ever be able to get the cost
down low enough to make air taxi service with the VLJ's affordable.

Eclipse is quoting around $32K for full coverage on it's 500 for a
"fully qualified pilot" (ie, something around 2000+/500 hour pilot),
or $64K for a newbie.

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/ownership/insurance/

If I'm doing the math right that's about 2% of hull value for the "fully
qualified pilot" and 4% for a newbie. Sounds about right. I was checking
insurance costs for the 601XL I'm building and was quoted $445.00/year on a
$40K hull cost.