PSA: Don't be rude on the radio

wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 10, 2:35 am, buttman wrote:
I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.


I don't post here that often anymore, but the recent spat of posts
about pattern etiquette has got me going. I really would like to know
how this theory that just because you're doing touch and goes in the
pattern, means you can go ahead and cut off straight in traffic? The
only thing the FAA has to say, regulatory, regarding traffic patterns
is that all turns must be to the left, unless noted, AND take note of
91.113(g)

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while landing,
have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on
the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to
force and aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed...

Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are aligned
with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles from the
threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?

On May 10, 11:29 am, "Allen" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



On May 10, 2:35 am, buttman wrote:
I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

I don't post here that often anymore, but the recent spat of posts
about pattern etiquette has got me going. I really would like to know
how this theory that just because you're doing touch and goes in the
pattern, means you can go ahead and cut off straight in traffic? The
only thing the FAA has to say, regulatory, regarding traffic patterns
is that all turns must be to the left, unless noted, AND take note of
91.113(g)

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while landing,
have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on
the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to
force and aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed...

Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are aligned
with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles from the
threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?

Maybe it would make more sense to announce position in minutes from
touchdown rather than miles.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

Maybe it would make more sense to announce position in minutes from
touchdown rather than miles.

That presumes you aren't trying to actually find him in the sky.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On May 10, 11:49 am, Jose wrote:
Maybe it would make more sense to announce position in minutes from
touchdown rather than miles.

That presumes you aren't trying to actually find him in the sky.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Good point.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Flying Machine - http://pad39a.com/gene/
Because we fly, we envy no one.

"Gene Seibel" wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 10, 11:49 am, Jose wrote:
Maybe it would make more sense to announce position in minutes from
touchdown rather than miles.

That presumes you aren't trying to actually find him in the sky.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.

Good point.

No, it isn't. It's outright blather.

"Cessna Seventy-three Charlie Quebec is departing runway 25 at Grass Valley
on a 2300 mile final for runway 9 Oshkosh."

{;-)

Jim



"Allen" wrote in message
...



Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are aligned
with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles from the
threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?

I did an 85 mile final to Barnes from BID once.

mike

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
"Cessna Seventy-three Charlie Quebec is departing runway 25 at Grass
Valley on a 2300 mile final for runway 9 Oshkosh."

{;-)

Jim



"Allen" wrote in message
...



Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are
aligned with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles
from the threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?

On Thu, 10 May 2007 11:29:04 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :

Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are aligned
with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles from the
threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?



http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/F.HTM
FINAL APPROACH [ICAO]- That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such a fix or point is not specified.

a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn of a racetrack procedure, if specified; or

b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:

1. A landing can be made; or

2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH COURSE- A bearing/radial/track of an instrument
approach leading to a runway or an extended runway centerline all
without regard to distance.

FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to
an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the
final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by
the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the
lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC
directs a lower-than-published glideslope/path intercept altitude,
it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 May 2007 11:29:04 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :

Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are
aligned
with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles from the
threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?



http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/F.HTM
FINAL APPROACH [ICAO]- That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such a fix or point is not specified.

a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn of a racetrack procedure, if specified; or

b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:

1. A landing can be made; or

2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH COURSE- A bearing/radial/track of an instrument
approach leading to a runway or an extended runway centerline all
without regard to distance.

FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to
an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the
final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by
the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the
lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC
directs a lower-than-published glideslope/path intercept altitude,
it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept.

And if you are in an NORDO Aeronca Champ doing touch and goes on Sunday
afternoon how do you determine it?

On Fri, 11 May 2007 06:42:17 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :


And if you are in an NORDO Aeronca Champ doing touch and goes on Sunday
afternoon how do you determine it?


My guess would be, that the same FAAO 7110.65 PCG definitions apply to
all flights including NORDO flights, as well as those who choose not
to participate in the position and intentions broadcasts

To determine if it's appropriate to begin the turns to the base and
final legs of the landing pattern, the NORDO pilot on downwind would
use the same method pilots of aircraft with electrical systems use,
the Mark I Eyeball.

If visibility is three miles in Class E airspace surrounding the
non-towered airport, and there is an inbound IFR flight past the five
mile distant FAF in line with the runway centerline, the NORDO pilot
won't be able to visually acquire the conflicting IFR traffic that has
the right of way. But, a Champ could land and be tied down before
there is an opportunity for a MAC.

At one mile visibility in Class G airspace, the Champ would probably
still not be too much of a hazard to the IFR arrival if its pilot made
a short approach. However, if the NORDO Champ turns base up against
the face of a cumulus cloud, there is potential for an 'aluminum
thunder shower', but the same would be true for radio equipped
aircraft despite the pilot being aware of the position and intentions
broadcast by the IFR arrival.

Do you see it differently?