PSA: Don't be rude on the radio

wrote in
ups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

.... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.

On May 10, 3:20 pm, "Allen" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


I'm saying the official definition of "final approach" is vague with
regards to distance from the end of the runway. Realisticly, I would
argue that "final approach" would begin at the point you can see the
runway. Outside of that, I'd call distance and intention; ie- "Twin
Cessna 3AB, 15 to the west, straight in runway 9.... Twin Cessna 3AB,
10 mile final, runway 9" etc.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On May 10, 3:20 pm, "Allen" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final"
as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


I'm saying the official definition of "final approach" is vague with
regards to distance from the end of the runway. Realisticly, I would
argue that "final approach" would begin at the point you can see the
runway. Outside of that, I'd call distance and intention; ie- "Twin
Cessna 3AB, 15 to the west, straight in runway 9.... Twin Cessna 3AB,
10 mile final, runway 9" etc.

No, I am with you on this! I just think there should be some (even if it is
arbitrary number pulled from a hat) distance to define when you are on
"final". What if you are approaching an airport from the wrong side and
make a right-hand turn to align with a runway with a left-hand traffic
pattern. There should be some distance from the airport you could do this
and then make a "straight-in" approach without violating any regs or the
AIM.

"Allen" wrote in message
...

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course...

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance.


The ILS approach at McMinnville, Oregon (KMMV) is pretty typical and the
FAF-to-MAP distance indicated on the approach plate is 5.1 miles.

(Couldn't resist; I've had the approach plate tacked the the wall next to my
monitor for weeks now for no reason I can remember.)
-c

On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:20:24 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :

It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


Right. So VFR flights are on final approach at the time they turn
from the Base to Final leg of the landing pattern, and IFR flights at
the FAF. Easy.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:20:24 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :

It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


Right. So VFR flights are on final approach at the time they turn
from the Base to Final leg of the landing pattern, and IFR flights at
the FAF. Easy.


So if you are on a VFR flight doing a straight in you are never on final?

On Fri, 11 May 2007 06:44:59 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:20:24 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :

It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


Right. So VFR flights are on final approach at the time they turn
from the Base to Final leg of the landing pattern, and IFR flights at
the FAF. Easy.


So if you are on a VFR flight doing a straight in you are never on final?

On Fri, 11 May 2007 06:44:59 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:20:24 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :

It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


Right. So VFR flights are on final approach at the time they turn
from the Base to Final leg of the landing pattern, and IFR flights at
the FAF. Easy.


So if you are on a VFR flight doing a straight in you are never on final?


Not the way I see it.

If you are aligned with the runway centerline VFR inbound, past the
FAF fix if there is a published instrument approach, I would say your
flight meets the PCG definition of being on the final approach leg of
the landing pattern. If there is no published FAF, (again, as in my
answer to your previous question in Message-ID:
qv) there are issues
governed by the prevailing metrological conditions and the class of
airspace in which the flight is being conducted.

I realize you are attempting to point out, that there are often
instances where the flight on downwind will inadvertently violate the
first sentence of CFR Title 14, Part 91 §91.113(g):


http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text... .1.3.10.2.4.7
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface
which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an
aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are
approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at
the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take
advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on
final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

But the second sentence of §91.113(g) above relating to the relative
altitudes of the aircraft makes that interpretation a bit ambiguous.

In practice, the point you are attempting to make is probably moot, as
I'm not aware of a significant number of MACs resulting from
§91.113(g) violations.

But you might do some research on the NTSB aviation accident database
to verify your concern: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp