PSA: Don't be rude on the radio

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...fcecd2c0126ad5

Interesting read. Just what you want in an instructor :-))

Hey, all, I have a question about a comment in the

"Sounds like another stupid instructor trick: practicing engine out
procedure at altitude by actually killing the engine. Could lead to an
'Oh ****!' experience. "

Is that really a stupid instructor trick at altitude? My first instructor
did it during our first cross country work--"Oops. I wonder how that
happened?" Later he said he did it because the examiner would do it on
the checkride. In fact, when the examiner did it on the checkride I
reflexively checked the fuel lever first.

...When he asked me why I didn't go through the whole emergency procedure
in order, I said because I checked the fuel shutoff valve first because
it's so easy for some passenger to accidentally bump it. The rest of the
maneuver started with him saying something like "Okay [implied
"smartass"], suppose that wasn't the problem. What would you do?"

Is this no longer considered good instructional practice?

Number 1 on the list for an actual engine out is to lower the nose and
maintain airspeed and control of the aircraft. Fly the airplane is always
number 1. Changing tanks and/or checking the fuel shutoff valve should be an
automatic first action on the checklist.
I don't believe in shutting an engine down completely to teach realism to a
student. Never had to do this, and don't recommend other CFI's do it either.
There's always the chance of packing up the engine playing around like this
and the gain in creating a more realistic scenario for the student can
easily be countered by the instructor facing an actual engine out and forced
landing.
The difference between a windmilling propeller (I'm talking singles here)
and a stopped prop on glide can easily be covered by an instructor and
understood by the student without actually stopping the prop.
Bottom line for me anyway, is that I never recommend an actual shutdown. I
DO recommend serious practice of simulated engine out landings (no power
assist from an unknown point through the landing) ON THE RUNWAY with
particular attention to the attainment of a key position for the subsequent
power off approach and landing on the runway.
In all the years I was instructing, I found this method completely
satisfactory for preparing a pilot to handle a forced landing.
Dudley Henriques

It's because we're all getting older (Baby Boom Generation) and we're
becoming Grumpy Old Men... Of course, we also have to balance this
with
being Dirty Old Men In Training...

Then again there are some of us out here who completed the DOM training
by age 6
:-)

You needed TRAINING?

It came naturally by age 5. :-)
DH


I was also much more of a DOM at that age than today. I have simply
presumed that I must have shared some ancestry with Mr. Ford Prefect--of
"Hitchhiker's Guide" infamy.

Peter

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"buttman" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 10, 10:20 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

Lemme get this straight! You are in instructor, which means you are
instrument rated, which means that you should know that outer markers
are
typically at least five miles from the landing zone--so, if you can
not
recall for a specific airport, you can still guess five miles. In
addition,
you did not bother to maintain familiarity with the procedures at an
airport
where you typically instruct, you failed to understant that the Cirrus
had
travelled a substantial (probably between a third and a half) of the
distance to the runway, and then you turned in front of known traffic
which
you did not see.



First off, I never said I did nothing wrong. I know I made a mistake
by turning in front of him. We all make mistakes, whether you're an
instructor or not. THE WHOLE POINT of the post was that the Cirrus guy
had to act like a pumpus ass.

Sounds like a typical childish response (ie, making excuses).

The only pompous ass here is yourself.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

I try and avoid this guy unless he posts on the student group where I have
an interest from an instructor's point of view. Over here it's every man
for
himself and I try to avoid taking him on.
Last time we "got together", was fairly recently when he posted on the
student group about yanking the fuel to shutoff on takeoff with "his
student" and wanted to know if it was a good idea :-)
I believe after my answer to him on this "little issue" that he now refers
to me as a "Usenet bully".
I'd be very interested in actually seeing his CFI certificate number and
knowing his real name for checkup with the FAA. I find it extremely
difficult from his dialog and points of view to envision him as a CFI, but
stranger things have happened I guess :-))
Dudley Henriques


I remembered the opinion that I had formed, but had forgotten the incident.
Thanks for the reminder.

Peter

On 2007-05-10 09:29:04 -0700, "Allen" said:


Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while landing,
have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on
the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to
force and aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed...

Which does nothing to define what "final approach" is. If you are aligned
with the runway and intending to land does final begin 5 miles from the
threshold? 10 miles? 15 miles? 50 miles?

Well, in the case linked, in each incident the pilot of the Cessna 150
turned inside and cut in front of aircraft that were lower than him and
on final approach. At least one aircraft appears to have been in the
pattern that was lower than him but not on final was considered by the
FAA to be on "final approach" and lower. This behavior by the Cessna
pilot occurred repeatedly and on more than one flight.

So many planes can be on "final approach" but the lower aircraft has
right of way. However, you cannot deliberately try to descend lower
than another plane simply to position yourself in front of him. In the
case of the Cessna 150 pilot, he nearly hit a plane that had just
landed as well as one that was on the runway ready to take off. While
landing aircraft normally have right of way over departing aircraft,
the FAA ruled that the Cessna pilot was operating dangerously and
recklessly and that he cannot claim to have right of way if he is
flying recklessly.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2007-05-09 23:35:14 -0700, buttman said:

I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

The first time was when I was at a local uncontrolled field with one
of my students to introduce solf-field takeoffs and landings. When we
were turning downwind, I heard a Cirrus call "On the ILS at the outer
marker". I haven't flown any approaches for months, so I had no idea
how exactly far out he was. There were at least two other people in
the pattern, so instead of asking him to give a more accurate position
report, I just went on. Just before I got abeam the numbers on
downwind, the Cirrus guy called 3 miles out, so I told my student to
just do a short approach instead of extending which would have screwed
everyone else up.

I'm looking out the window like crazy to find this Cirrus guy but I
don't see him anywhere. Then suddenly I hear him say in a snappy voice
"Cessna on base at *** do you plan on cutting me off?" Startled, I
looked around but couldn't for the life of me see him. I responded
"uuhh, Cirrus on ILS I don't see you", then he snaps back
sarcastically, "oh 45 seconds before impact..."

Well, he was reckless. He saw you, but bull-headedly continued anyway
despite the risk of collision. It no longer matters who was right; he
was willing to kill both you and him simply to prove a point. It
appears he even sped up in order to make sure he stayed in front of you
or to intimidate you.

All pilots make mistakes, which is all the more reason we cannot allow
air rage to overcome our good judgment and sense of courtesy. Pilots
should be understanding and tolerant of each others' mistakes, if for
no other reason that no one is perfect.

People who cannot control their anger or other emotions in the cockpit
are a danger to both themselves and everyone around them. For this
reason alone I find the Cirrus pilot's behavior alarming.

However, that does not relieve you of your duty to both see and avoid
other aircraft, to follow the rules of right of way, or to communicate
more clearly on the radio. A little cooperation while the Cirrus was
still at the outer marker would have been more appropriate. A
preemptive "I don't see you or understand where you are; we are on base
about to turn final" might still have elicited a sharp response, but it
is one more thing you could have done to prevent the incident.

I think filing a NASA form is also a very good idea any time aircraft
communication (or the lack thereof) poses a hazard to operations. This
could go a long way toward improving communication in the future and is
a good resource to instructors.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On May 10, 7:19 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:
On 2007-05-09 23:35:14 -0700, buttman said:



I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

The first time was when I was at a local uncontrolled field with one
of my students to introduce solf-field takeoffs and landings. When we
were turning downwind, I heard a Cirrus call "On the ILS at the outer
marker". I haven't flown any approaches for months, so I had no idea
how exactly far out he was. There were at least two other people in
the pattern, so instead of asking him to give a more accurate position
report, I just went on. Just before I got abeam the numbers on
downwind, the Cirrus guy called 3 miles out, so I told my student to
just do a short approach instead of extending which would have screwed
everyone else up.

I'm looking out the window like crazy to find this Cirrus guy but I
don't see him anywhere. Then suddenly I hear him say in a snappy voice
"Cessna on base at *** do you plan on cutting me off?" Startled, I
looked around but couldn't for the life of me see him. I responded
"uuhh, Cirrus on ILS I don't see you", then he snaps back
sarcastically, "oh 45 seconds before impact..."

Well, he was reckless. He saw you, but bull-headedly continued anyway
despite the risk of collision. It no longer matters who was right; he
was willing to kill both you and him simply to prove a point. It
appears he even sped up in order to make sure he stayed in front of you
or to intimidate you.

All pilots make mistakes, which is all the more reason we cannot allow
air rage to overcome our good judgment and sense of courtesy. Pilots
should be understanding and tolerant of each others' mistakes, if for
no other reason that no one is perfect.

People who cannot control their anger or other emotions in the cockpit
are a danger to both themselves and everyone around them. For this
reason alone I find the Cirrus pilot's behavior alarming.

However, that does not relieve you of your duty to both see and avoid
other aircraft, to follow the rules of right of way, or to communicate
more clearly on the radio. A little cooperation while the Cirrus was
still at the outer marker would have been more appropriate. A
preemptive "I don't see you or understand where you are; we are on base
about to turn final" might still have elicited a sharp response, but it
is one more thing you could have done to prevent the incident.

I think filing a NASA form is also a very good idea any time aircraft
communication (or the lack thereof) poses a hazard to operations. This
could go a long way toward improving communication in the future and is
a good resource to instructors.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

THANK YOU for actually reading my post and understanding my point. I
know in the case of the Cirrus, I could have done more to avoid that
situation. There were a few other planes in the pattern so it's not
like we could have just freely opened up an dialog between one
another. I hope my post didn't come off as "wah wah a mean cirrus cut
me off what a meany head wah wah" like some others are making it out
to be. No one is perfect, and I don't know why some people can't
accept the fact that I'm not...

My point was that rage over the radio is ABSOLUTELY NEVER
constructive. EVER. All it does is cause more problems.

On May 10, 2:43 pm, "Matt Barrow"
wrote:
"buttman" wrote in message

oups.com...



On May 10, 10:20 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

Lemme get this straight! You are in instructor, which means you are
instrument rated, which means that you should know that outer markers are
typically at least five miles from the landing zone--so, if you can not
recall for a specific airport, you can still guess five miles. In
addition,
you did not bother to maintain familiarity with the procedures at an
airport
where you typically instruct, you failed to understant that the Cirrus
had
travelled a substantial (probably between a third and a half) of the
distance to the runway, and then you turned in front of known traffic
which
you did not see.

First off, I never said I did nothing wrong. I know I made a mistake
by turning in front of him. We all make mistakes, whether you're an
instructor or not. THE WHOLE POINT of the post was that the Cirrus guy
had to act like a pumpus ass.

Sounds like a typical childish response (ie, making excuses).

The only pompous ass here is yourself.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

Is this a joke? Are you being intentionally obtuse? Can you read?
Assuming you can, go back and read the first sentence I wrote.

I know I could have handled that situation a little better. Hindsight
is always 20/20. I accept full responsibility for me turning in front
of him. I have never said anything to the contrary. What on earth
makes you think I'm making excuses?

Are you saying the Cirrus guy was in the right to say what he said on
the radio? You think what I did gave him the right to act as
unprofessionally as he did? Or do you think what he said and how he
said it was indeed professional?

I dont know if this is true but if it is you sure have a lot of problems.
"buttman" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

The first time was when I was at a local uncontrolled field with one
of my students to introduce solf-field takeoffs and landings. When we
were turning downwind, I heard a Cirrus call "On the ILS at the outer
marker". I haven't flown any approaches for months, so I had no idea
how exactly far out he was. There were at least two other people in
the pattern, so instead of asking him to give a more accurate position
report, I just went on. Just before I got abeam the numbers on
downwind, the Cirrus guy called 3 miles out, so I told my student to
just do a short approach instead of extending which would have screwed
everyone else up.

I'm looking out the window like crazy to find this Cirrus guy but I
don't see him anywhere. Then suddenly I hear him say in a snappy voice
"Cessna on base at *** do you plan on cutting me off?" Startled, I
looked around but couldn't for the life of me see him. I responded
"uuhh, Cirrus on ILS I don't see you", then he snaps back
sarcastically, "oh 45 seconds before impact..."

I look right in front of me and there he is zooming by. I didn't
realize Cirrus's were so fast. He had to have been going more than 150
knots. I've turned short approaches in front of Seminoles when they
were on 3 mile ILS finals and it has never been a problem...

Anyways, the guy didn't have to be such a huge asshole. A busy pattern
is stressful enough, the ones coming in straight in can at least be a
little helpful, or at the VERY LEAST not act like a little baby when
things don't go their way.

Of the 50 or so times I've been on extended downwind when someone else
in on a 3-10 mile final, I'd say 10 times I went behind them and it
hasn't been a problem, 35 times I've gone behind them and it hasn't
been a problem, and 5 times I messed it up and either cut the person
off, or caused some other disruption. The other 4 times it was just a
simple "sorry about that", or some other professional way of handing
the situation, then forgetting it and moving on. It just makes it that
much harder to shake it off when the person decides to act that way.
Maybe I need to get thicker skin, but that situation had me all worked
up for the rest of the flight, and I admit it hindered my instructing
ability a little.

As a little side note, that same Cirrus guy came today to my home
airport which is even busier. There were like 7 planes already in the
pattern, 3 on 45 for the pattern, and then comes my Cirrus. I
recognized it was him because I remembered the tail number (N903CD).
As soon as he called, tower told him to slow to final approach speed
(which I just had to snicker to myself when I heard that ^_^). About a
minute later I, on an extended downwind, was told to turn base, which
would have put me right in front of the Cirrus. The tower cleared me
for a full stop only (which I've never been issued before, our
controllers are really good at accommodating a bunch of pattern
traffic), and told the Cirrus to break off and enter on the 45 for a
left traffic. After I landed, I switched to ground and just called it
a day. When I got back to the training room, another instructor joked
about how I was "kicked out of the pattern". He asked me of I heard
about the Cirrus who "got ****ed off and left". I said no but I can
only imagine what he actually said...

Anyways, back on topic. Also today, on another flight with another
student, we were coming back on the 45 for a downwind entry. Not too
long after he told me to report established on the downwind, someone's
mic got stuck and all I could hear on the radio was "EEEERRRRRRCHSHH
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" punctuated with my call sign and the words "I'm not
communicating with him", then some more "AAAAAAEERRRRNNNGH". I saw a
plane on downwind which was about to converge with me, a helicopter
which looked like was doing WHO KNOWS WHAT, and someone else on upwind
about to turn crosswind. It looked like I was going to converge with
the plane on downwind, so I just decided to do a 360 where I was
(about a mile before entering downwind). As soon as a break in the
radio screeching appeared, I quickly told tower I'm doing a 360 to
avoid what by then I thought was a clueless student on a solo who
didn't know how to use the radio.

Well as soon as I told tower, a voice came on saying "..and that will
put you right in front of 64 Delta" (or whatever his tail number was).
Apparently there was a plane behind me, but I had no idea. Buy
anyways, he had to do a evasive maneuver also, and he was ticked off.
He came back on and told tower he had to do an evasive to avoid "the
kamikaze" as he called me.

Well guess what, bub? I had to do an evasive maneuver too. Thats an
everyday thing 'round these parts. There are two busy flight schools,
as well as a lot of military activity (a C-130 comes here a few times
a week to do touch and goes, gives us a lot of wake turbulence
avoidance practice ^_^). I had to fly a downwind parallel to him and
then follow him in. I couldn't let my student do the flying because it
was an atypical situation. AND I had to do all this while I'm getting
name-called by some tard out of no-where. It just makes things that
much more frustrating.


So please, don't be a jackass show off on the radio. I actually saw
the second guy climb out his plane after we landed. I saw he had what
looked like his wife in there with him. I imagine he was acting like
that to show off in front of his wife *rolleyes*.

Anyways, just please be mindful of others, especially considering the
environment your in (busy airspace; emergency in the area; whatever it
may be). Just be aware that those snappy one liners may make you look
cool, but they just make others frustrated and more life more
difficult.

I know this post is getting long, but theres one more instance I want
to bring up. When I was getting my multi rating a few months ago, we
went to a towered airport a few miles away to do a few ILS/VOR
approaches. While we were doing the procedure turns and stuff, we
could hear this clueless student pilot entering on a solo cross
country. This guy was a total wreck. First he was 10 miles south; then
he was 5 miles north, then he was over such and such lake which is 15
miles northwest. The controllers at this particular airport aren't
known as the friendliest around, so as you can imagine, the poor guy
wasn't having a good time.

I wasn't really paying attention to what all was being said because I
was focusing on my approaches, but after doing about 3 full ILS/VOR
approaches (procedure turn and all) he still was confused as to where
he was and hadn't landed yet (but I believe was still in the pattern).
We were just doing missed approaches, breaking off well before the
airport area to stay out of the way.

I don't really blame the controller because he was frustrated too, but
it was what my instructor said which I think was worst of all. During
our last approach, he said something to the effect of "Do you want us
to do another low approach so you can handle this guy, or can we do a
touch and go the this next one?"

I just cringed when I heard that. I just can imagine being in his
shoes. The last thing I want to know is that I'm messing not only the
controller's thing, but other pilots as well. We didn't NEED to do a
touch and go, we could have just did our share by helping out with the
low approaches, then moved on. Indirectly telling the poor student how
incompetent he is (which he HAS to already know by then) just helps no
one out. It just makes things worse.

I don't think what my instructor said

Dudley Henriques wrote:

I try and avoid this guy unless he posts on the student group where I have
an interest from an instructor's point of view. Over here it's every man for
himself and I try to avoid taking him on.
Last time we "got together", was fairly recently when he posted on the
student group about yanking the fuel to shutoff on takeoff with "his
student" and wanted to know if it was a good idea :-)

aHA! Now I remember the "buttman incident" from a few weeks ago.
I thought the OP sounded vaguely familiar...

buttman wrote:

Is this a joke? Are you being intentionally obtuse? Can you read?
Assuming you can, go back and read the first sentence I wrote.

I know I could have handled that situation a little better. Hindsight
is always 20/20. I accept full responsibility for me turning in front
of him. I have never said anything to the contrary. What on earth
makes you think I'm making excuses?

Are you saying the Cirrus guy was in the right to say what he said on
the radio? You think what I did gave him the right to act as
unprofessionally as he did? Or do you think what he said and how he
said it was indeed professional?

Stop whining and get a thicker skin. It happens. So what? You expect
everyone around you to be explicit adherents to Miss Manners?

Not only that, all we have read is your perception of the event.

And following Dudley's train of thought - can you prove you're a CFI?