Is it just me that thinks this was stupid

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Blanche" wrote in message
...
On 5/14/2007 2:03:24 AM, "Bravo Two Zero" wrote:

A small plane crashed into Lake Pleasant, just outside of Phoenix, at
approx 8pm Friday, while the pilot was reportedly talking on his
cellphone
and flying 10 feet above the water.
Can you have "ground effect" over water?

There's a great story about the crew of a Pan Am Stratocruiser I think it
was, who were low on fuel and a long way out over the ocean. They let down
to within a wingspan's distance over the water, leaned it back a ton, played
with the RPM, and made it home.
Can't remember the source of the story, but I do remember reading it a long
time ago.
Dudley Henriques


Maybe a true story but I think the the odds are they would have been
much better off at high altitude. As I understand it, induced drag is
only reduced by 10% at 50% of wing span above surface. At 20% of wing
span altitude the drag is still ~70% (Surface skimming birds actually go
lower, nearly touching the water with their wing tips). Of course if the
Stratocourser dropped to say 10' it could have worked better... -kersplash!

Cheers MarkC

"DR" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Blanche" wrote in message
...
On 5/14/2007 2:03:24 AM, "Bravo Two Zero" wrote:

A small plane crashed into Lake Pleasant, just outside of Phoenix, at
approx 8pm Friday, while the pilot was reportedly talking on his
cellphone
and flying 10 feet above the water.
Can you have "ground effect" over water?

There's a great story about the crew of a Pan Am Stratocruiser I think it
was, who were low on fuel and a long way out over the ocean. They let
down to within a wingspan's distance over the water, leaned it back a
ton, played with the RPM, and made it home.
Can't remember the source of the story, but I do remember reading it a
long time ago.
Dudley Henriques

Maybe a true story but I think the the odds are they would have been much
better off at high altitude. As I understand it, induced drag is only
reduced by 10% at 50% of wing span above surface. At 20% of wing span
altitude the drag is still ~70% (Surface skimming birds actually go lower,
nearly touching the water with their wing tips). Of course if the
Stratocourser dropped to say 10' it could have worked
better... -kersplash!

Cheers MarkC

If I remember right, nobody reporting on the incident reflected on what they
might have done, only on what they actually did. They very well might have
optimized range at altitude.
I can't remember the specifics involved. Knowing the exact circumstances
would make it a lot more clear for those interested in making a judgment on
the incident I would imagine.
Dudley Henriques

If I remember right, nobody reporting on the incident reflected on what they
might have done, only on what they actually did. They very well might have
optimized range at altitude.

Maybe they couldn't get to altitude.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
t...
If I remember right, nobody reporting on the incident reflected on what
they might have done, only on what they actually did. They very well
might have optimized range at altitude.

Maybe they couldn't get to altitude.

I sure wish I could remember the specifics but it's all a big fuzzball. I
remember seeing the story but don't remember much about the specifics, and
that's where the answer will be I'm sure. Through the fog I seem to remember
something about not wanting to do the climb because of the fuel remaining
and that being a factor in their decision.
Knowing the gang on this forum, I'll bet someone finds the answer before
this thread is finished :-))
Dudley Henriques

Knowing the gang on this forum, I'll bet someone finds the answer before
this thread is finished :-))

Threads finish?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
et...
Knowing the gang on this forum, I'll bet someone finds the answer before
this thread is finished :-))

Threads finish?

I think "wander" might be a better term :-)
I remember one that started with "What's the concrete mix ratio for concrete
runways please?" and finished about 80 posts later with
"Picking a good CFI is the first decision you make as a pilot that has to be
right"
Ya gotta love Usenet!!!
Dudley Henriques

("Dudley Henriques" wrote)
I remember one that started with "What's the concrete mix ratio for
concrete runways please?" and finished about 80 posts later with "Picking
a good CFI is the first decision you make as a pilot that has to be right"


I attended the "Open House" for Runway 17/35 at MSP two years ago.

We got to walk out on the runway, see some jets (up close), look at lots of
big airport equipment, visit 20(?) different contractor tent-booths, listen
to a band, ...the usual stuff. g

They had a cut-a-way model section of the new runway - no rebar. Project
manager said that they don't use rebar when building new runways - at least
not in Minnesota, I guess.

http://www.mspairport.com/msp/expans...way_17_35.aspx
The Mall of America is at the top of the pic @ 12:30

That's the Minnesota River, behind the MoA. It connects up with the
Mississippi River, downstream, another two miles.


Montblack
MoA is the former site of Metropolitan Stadium (Twins, Vikings) and Met
Center (MN North Stars)

In article , DR
wrote:

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Blanche" wrote in message
...
On 5/14/2007 2:03:24 AM, "Bravo Two Zero" wrote:

A small plane crashed into Lake Pleasant, just outside of Phoenix, at
approx 8pm Friday, while the pilot was reportedly talking on his
cellphone
and flying 10 feet above the water.
Can you have "ground effect" over water?

There's a great story about the crew of a Pan Am Stratocruiser I think it
was, who were low on fuel and a long way out over the ocean. They let down
to within a wingspan's distance over the water, leaned it back a ton,
played
with the RPM, and made it home.
Can't remember the source of the story, but I do remember reading it a long
time ago.
Dudley Henriques


Maybe a true story but I think the the odds are they would have been
much better off at high altitude. As I understand it, induced drag is
only reduced by 10% at 50% of wing span above surface. At 20% of wing
span altitude the drag is still ~70% (Surface skimming birds actually go
lower, nearly touching the water with their wing tips). Of course if the
Stratocourser dropped to say 10' it could have worked better... -kersplash!

Cheers MarkC

I recall the story -- happened about 50 years ago. The Stratocruiser
lost 2 engines, IIRC, and descended (power glided) to about 1/2 wingspan
of the water and was able to fly to land in surface effect. They
obviously did not descend immediately, rather they did a max L/D powered
descent until they stopped losing altitude. It was written up in an old
"Reader's Digest," among others.

In article ,
Orval Fairbairn wrote:

I recall the story -- happened about 50 years ago. The Stratocruiser
lost 2 engines, IIRC, and descended (power glided) to about 1/2 wingspan
of the water and was able to fly to land in surface effect. They
obviously did not descend immediately, rather they did a max L/D powered
descent until they stopped losing altitude. It was written up in an old
"Reader's Digest," among others.

This sounds like the Ernest Gann novel 'The High and the Mighty'
which was also made into a movie of the same name, starring John
Wayne and Robert Stack.

Halfway between Hawaii and San Francisco, they lose an engine which
sheds parts and punctures the fuel tanks on that wing. The movie
was unavailable for years due to a dispute with Wayne's estate,
but has recently become available. I watched it last year, and it
is very well done, and the inspiration for all the other aviation
disaster flicks.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

"John Clear" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Orval Fairbairn wrote:

I recall the story -- happened about 50 years ago. The Stratocruiser
lost 2 engines, IIRC, and descended (power glided) to about 1/2 wingspan
of the water and was able to fly to land in surface effect. They
obviously did not descend immediately, rather they did a max L/D powered
descent until they stopped losing altitude. It was written up in an old
"Reader's Digest," among others.

This sounds like the Ernest Gann novel 'The High and the Mighty'
which was also made into a movie of the same name, starring John
Wayne and Robert Stack.

Halfway between Hawaii and San Francisco, they lose an engine which
sheds parts and punctures the fuel tanks on that wing. The movie
was unavailable for years due to a dispute with Wayne's estate,
but has recently become available. I watched it last year, and it
is very well done, and the inspiration for all the other aviation
disaster flicks.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/


If I remember right, in that movie the bird was a DC6 and I think they
stayed at altitude until approach with a normal enroute altitude profile.
The big rub was the ongoing interaction between the right and left seats on
whether to ditch in the sea under power with the remaining fuel or try for
the approach and take a chance the engines would quit.

Poor Lennie the navigator screwed up his winds and made the problem a bit
more interesting, but I don't recall them leaving their assigned altitude
enroute to take a shot at ground effect.
Great movie though. Wonderful sub-plots with Alexis Smith and David Brian
and the other regulars.
You have to love the Duke! Poor Robert Stack. With an engine hanging off the
wing, raw fuel pouring out all over the place, the passengers yelling and
screaming in the back that they're all going to die, solid IFR, on vectors
to the FAF with nothing but the city below him and the fuel gauges on empty,
the Duke, who KNOWS that unusable fuel just MIGHT be usable, slaps him in
the puss and hollers, "Shut up and fly!"
Ah...the movies!!! Great Stuff!! :-))
Dudley Henriques