buy or rent a 2006 182

"john smith" wrote:


Dan Luke wrote:
Renter's ins., $1M smooth $3,185 (?)

I only pay about $750/year with AVEMCO for $1M renters insurance.

What hull value does that cover?

$30k

That wouldn't help much if I crumped a $300K bird.

I'll call my agent Tuesday and see what it would cost to cover that much.

--
Dan
? at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message ...

"john smith" wrote:


Dan Luke wrote:
Renter's ins., $1M smooth $3,185 (?)

I only pay about $750/year with AVEMCO for $1M renters insurance.

What hull value does that cover?

$30k

That wouldn't help much if I crumped a $300K bird.

I'll call my agent Tuesday and see what it would cost to cover that much.

--
Dan
? at BFM


Doesn't the flight school have any insurance?

"Blueskies" wrote in message
t...
Doesn't the flight school have any insurance?

Most likely yes. But most likely it covers the flight school, not the
renter pilot.

1) Pilot breaks airplane.
2) Insurance co. pays flight school.
3) Renter pilot learns what the word "subrogation" means.

Many flight schools fail to stress this "gotcha" to their customers because
then fewer folks would rent their airplanes.

Vaughn

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Blueskies" wrote in message t...
Doesn't the flight school have any insurance?

Most likely yes. But most likely it covers the flight school, not the renter pilot.

1) Pilot breaks airplane.
2) Insurance co. pays flight school.
3) Renter pilot learns what the word "subrogation" means.

Many flight schools fail to stress this "gotcha" to their customers because then fewer folks would rent their
airplanes.

Vaughn

Yes, so the plane is covered. Then the renter's insurance covers the additional liability...

"Blueskies" wrote in message
news

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Blueskies" wrote in message
t...
Doesn't the flight school have any insurance?

Most likely yes. But most likely it covers the flight school, not the
renter pilot.

1) Pilot breaks airplane.
2) Insurance co. pays flight school.
3) Renter pilot learns what the word "subrogation" means.

Many flight schools fail to stress this "gotcha" to their customers
because then fewer folks would rent their airplanes.

Vaughn

Yes, so the plane is covered. Then the renter's insurance covers the
additional liability...

Only if the renter has bought enough hull coverage on his renter's
insurance policy. The hull is not covered by the liability portion. I haven't
looked lately, but usually about $100,000 is the most you can buy.

Vaughn

In article ,
"Blueskies" wrote:

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Blueskies" wrote in message
t...
Doesn't the flight school have any insurance?

Most likely yes. But most likely it covers the flight school, not the
renter pilot.

1) Pilot breaks airplane.
2) Insurance co. pays flight school.
3) Renter pilot learns what the word "subrogation" means.

Many flight schools fail to stress this "gotcha" to their customers
because then fewer folks would rent their
airplanes.

Vaughn

Yes, so the plane is covered. Then the renter's insurance covers the
additional liability...

My $30k of hull is enough to cover the owners deductible.
The liability covers the rest.

On 05/26/07 18:57, john smith wrote:
In article ,
"Blueskies" wrote:

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

"Blueskies" wrote in message
t...
Doesn't the flight school have any insurance?

Most likely yes. But most likely it covers the flight school, not the
renter pilot.

1) Pilot breaks airplane.
2) Insurance co. pays flight school.
3) Renter pilot learns what the word "subrogation" means.

Many flight schools fail to stress this "gotcha" to their customers
because then fewer folks would rent their
airplanes.

Vaughn

Yes, so the plane is covered. Then the renter's insurance covers the
additional liability...

My $30k of hull is enough to cover the owners deductible.

Do you believe that you will only be asked to pay the owner's
deductible? Why do you think the owner's insurance company won't
come after you for the money they paid to the owner?

The liability covers the rest.

Do you think your liability coverage will pay the owner's insurance
company back for the claim they paid to the owner on the hull coverage?

My $30k of hull is enough to cover the owners deductible.

Do you believe that you will only be asked to pay the owner's
deductible? Why do you think the owner's insurance company won't
come after you for the money they paid to the owner?

The liability covers the rest.

Do you think your liability coverage will pay the owner's insurance
company back for the claim they paid to the owner on the hull coverage?

If I am a renter, and the engine quits because something breaks, I land
it and walk away. The insurance companies fight over who pays what.
Who are they going to get more from? Me or the others (including the
owner) who have an interest?
As it has been explained to me, inusrance companies rarely subrogate
unless they have a deep pocket or there was a blatant violation of the
regulations.
In todays litiguous society, the owner and the owners insurance company
stand an equal chance of being sued for improper maintenance.

Why do you think the owner's insurance company won't
come after you for the money they paid to the owner?

Because in the real world, they don't do that.

Over the years I've talked to several FBO owners, insurance agents,
and airplane owners who have been in situations where subrogation
would seemingly be justified, even called for, and the insurance
company has always declined to pursue it.

One aviation insurance agent I know has never had a policy he's sold
to go into subrogation (and he's been doing it a long time), and he
and his customers are actually quite mad about it because in some of
the cases the people the insurers declined to subrogate were
stunningly stupid and/or negligent and they thought very strongly that
they should have been subrogated, but weren't.

Subrogation is "out there" as a threat, but it's very seldom used in
the real world, if ever. It usually isn't worth it to the insurance
company. That is probably why you can't buy high-dollar renter
policies -- the companies that sell them know better than to sell
policies worth enough to make their customers attractive targets for
subrogation.

Can anyone name a specific instance where they know subrogation was
done? I've not been able to find anyone, and I've asked FBOs, owners,
insurance agents, etc, over several years. Does that mean you should
count on it not being done? No. But it's not the big boogeyman some
people are making it out to be, unless perhaps ou have a very high
personal net worth or some other unusual circumstance that makes you a
particularly attractive target.

"john smith" wrote in message
...
My $30k of hull is enough to cover the owners deductible.

Nope! Your rental contract likely makes you liable to the owner for his
deductible and other related expenses, but it does not end there! Here is the
way subrogation works:

1) The owner's insurance company pays the claim to the owner of the airplane,
who hopefully walks away happy.
2) The insurance company sues the responsible party for its loss (most likely,
the renter pilot...You)

There are two things that can protect you from the threat of subrogation:
1) Your flight school/FBO paid extra for a "waiver of subrogation" clause to
protect their customers. (I understand this is rare these days.)
2) Your vulnerable assets are small enough that the insurance company does not
bother suing you (In practice, this probably happens a lot.)

Liability does not apply. Liability pays for bodily injury and things you break
other than the airframe you are renting.

I am not a lawyer (and don't play one on the Internet) so if I am wrong about
this, please show me something to convince me.

Vaughn