OT - the OT tag and the Re bug.

On Mon, 28 May 2007 21:29:37 -0400, Jose wrote:

When a subject line is changed, it is a good indication that the
conversation has changed. (the converse is of course not true). Perhaps
it's a bug (or feature) in my reader (Netscape 7.2) that when sorting by
threads, the sort list can't be alphabetized.

My newsreader doesn't "sort" by thread. It will "group" by thread. This
does act a lot like sorting, in that the messages w/in a thread are
displayed in an order consistent with their relationships (ie. a reply to
A will follow A). But it doesn't sort over multiple threads as those
messages not in a same thread have no relation on which an ordering
decision can be made.

So there's some other sort criteria for that (date, subject, received
date, etc.) that used for this purpose.

Netscape does it differently?

[...]


Maybe my sort-by-thread is just buggy. But I doubt I'm the only one
with buggy software.

The Internet isn't bug-free yet?

From what you're describing, it sounds like Netscape's news reading
capability is broken in several different ways. Why not simply use
something else? There are plenty of alternatives; it seems silly to
settle, even if it is a small thing (ie. not an important issue, like
high-wing vs. low-wing {8^).

- Andrew

But it doesn't sort over multiple threads as those
messages not in a same thread have no relation on which an ordering
decision can be made.

Netscape 7.2 (which I use) cannot sort threads by subject line. (by
this I don't mean messages within a thread, which should be in thread
order, but rather, the group of threads themselves)

Of course, since threads are not defined by subject line, this is
understandable, nonetheless, threads are usually closely correlated with
subject line, and when I remember a thread I want to look at (or avoid),
it is usually by subject line.

=Messages= can be sorted by subject line, but then the OT colon bug
shows up.

The Internet isn't bug-free yet?

It was bug free the day before it was born.

From what you're describing, it sounds like Netscape's news reading
capability is broken in several different ways.

No, actually it is probably working as designed, since threads are not
defined by subject line. That is, subject lines can change within a
thread, so which subject line should be used?

Why not simply use
something else?

I could, I suppose, but that's not the point. My point is that I have
(re)discovered an (admittedly small but vexing) adverse consequence of
people using a colon after a prepend. With this knowledge, those that
care about this adverse consequence to others may wish to avoid
following prepends with a colon.

That is all.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Tue, 29 May 2007 15:18:36 -0400, Jose wrote:

But it doesn't sort over multiple threads as those messages not in a
same thread have no relation on which an ordering decision can be made.

Netscape 7.2 (which I use) cannot sort threads by subject line. (by this
I don't mean messages within a thread, which should be in thread order,
but rather, the group of threads themselves)

Of course, since threads are not defined by subject line, this is
understandable,

If I understand what you've written, I disagree: it is clearly a bug and
not "understandable". As you point out, messages w/in a thread should be
in an order consistent with thread ordering. But the relative ordering of
threads themselves is - obviously - independent of threading. One should
be able to order threads however one wants (subject, date, etc.).

Not being able to do this isn't understandable (except as a "whoops!" {8^).

- Andrew

If I understand what you've written, I disagree: it is clearly a bug and
not "understandable". As you point out, messages w/in a thread should be
in an order consistent with thread ordering. But the relative ordering of
threads themselves is - obviously - independent of threading. One should
be able to order threads however one wants (subject, date, etc.).

Suppose you start a thread called
OT: bugs in aviation.
The response to the first message comes from a "good" reader, and has
the subject
OT: bugs in aviation.
The response to that response is from a "bad" reader, and has the subject
OT: bugs in aviation.
Somebody else, with a "bad" reader, responds to the first message. His
subject line is
bugs in aviation.
Somebody with a "good" reader replies to that message. The subject is
bugs in aviation.
Someone with a good reader replies to the first message, and overrules
the subject line. His subject line is:
GPS bugs (was OT: bugs in aviation)
Someone with a good reader replies to this message. The subject is:
GPS bugs (was OT: bugs in aviation)
Someone with a very bad reader replies to the "overrule" message. The
subject line is:
bugs in aviation)
(everything in front of the colon was replaced with "re")
etc.

On Monday the first of Augtober, I read the first message in the thread.
By Tuesday, the rest of the messages have come in.
On Wednesday, I sign on again. I want to see a list of THREADS,
alphabetized by SUBJECT LINE. (I don't want to see a list of all
messages, just all threads, and the number of messages in each thread)

So, how should these messages be sorted?

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:32:30 -0400, Jose wrote:

On Monday the first of Augtober, I read the first message in the thread.
By Tuesday, the rest of the messages have come in. On Wednesday, I sign on
again. I want to see a list of THREADS, alphabetized by SUBJECT LINE. (I
don't want to see a list of all messages, just all threads, and the number
of messages in each thread)

So, how should these messages be sorted?

If your reader is like mine, it lists threads (as opposed to messages) by
"collapsing" the listing. So you'll see the "top" message for each tree
of replies.

These top messages will be sorted by subject.

No message that is a reply to any other [unread] message will be visible
in this listing because it is collapsed. If you "open" a thread, those
replies will become visible (and nested or somehow flagged as being
internal to the given thread's tree).

Hmm. You may see the replies to the first [read] message separately. The
reader knows that they're connected, but it doesn't have any way to
graphically display this (because read messages are invisible). That is,
there's no way to display the fact that two replies to the same [read]
message are in the same thread because there's no visible construct under
which both messages can be placed.

Is that the problem you're describing?

If so, all you need is a reader that actually displays thread tops
rather than the top message in the thread.

My reader (pan) doesn't do this. I'd never noticed this before. But if
I want to force a thread to maintain its tree structure over time, I do
need to change the filtering to display read messages too.

Trying this, I don't particularly like it even though I still have
"next unread" (and now I know why that exists {8^) and it clearly
indicates which are read, unread, and new. It just uses too much "space"
in the expanded view. But this is how one would need to see an entire
thread.

I think displaying a separate artifact on the list for "thread top" would
work too, though.

- Andrew

On Wed, 30 May 2007 10:12:19 -0400, Andrew Gideon wrote:

Trying this, I don't particularly like it even though I still have "next
unread" (and now I know why that exists {8^) and it clearly indicates
which are read, unread, and new. It just uses too much "space" in the
expanded view. But this is how one would need to see an entire thread.

Umm...I've tried using this for a bit, and now I'm not so sure. I rather
like being "in a thread" rather than reading messages. And pan offers
keyboard shortcuts for expand/collapse thread etc. which are suddenly
useful.

Only threads with unread messages are appearing. So my message list is
actually looking less cluttered than before, even though when I expand a
thread I see all the unread messages listed.

Let's see what happens when I come upon some really large threads (which
is bound to happen here sooner or later {8^).

- Andrew

If your reader is like mine, it lists threads (as opposed to messages) by
"collapsing" the listing. So you'll see the "top" message for each tree
of replies.

Exactly.

Hmm. You may see the replies to the first [read] message separately.

Exactly. So now I have three trees under:

bugs in...
GPS bugs...
OT...

where ideally there'd just be one listing, under
OT...
where all the other OT posts, threads, or trees would be sorted

That is,
there's no way to display the fact that two replies to the same [read]
message are in the same thread because there's no visible construct under
which both messages can be placed.

Is that the problem you're describing?

Yes, that is one aspect of it.

If so, all you need is a reader that actually displays thread tops
rather than the top message in the thread.

What if the thread top is six months old?

My reader (pan) doesn't do this. I'd never noticed this before.

Go back and see if, for an OT thread with the colon (for example, the
one about Electric cars), you see separate trees, one that starts with
OT and another that starts with Electric.

Trying [show read messages too], I don't particularly like it

Neither do I. It's clumsier than simply putting up with the defeat of
the OT prepend.

Umm...I've tried using this [same thing] for a bit, and now I'm not so sure.
I rather like being "in a thread" rather than reading messages.

Yes, that part is nice. But sorting trees by subject line is
problematic, and that's how I'd like to sort them.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Recently, Jose posted:

[...] But sorting trees by subject line is
problematic, and that's how I'd like to sort them.

OE sorts trees by subject line, but if the subject line changes, you get a
new tree root if read files are hidden.

I really don't see a way to resolve all of the possible ways that readers
deal with thread headers into a universally consistent practice. Someone
will always come up with an app that does something wacky.

Neil

OE sorts trees by subject line, but if the subject line changes, you get a
new tree root if read files are hidden.

Right. This is what happens with Netscape too.

I really don't see a way to resolve all of the possible ways that readers
deal with thread headers into a universally consistent practice. Someone
will always come up with an app that does something wacky.

Right. But if posters avoid following a prepend with a colon, this
issue won't be an issue.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Recently, Jose posted:

I really don't see a way to resolve all of the possible ways that
readers deal with thread headers into a universally consistent
practice. Someone will always come up with an app that does
something wacky.

Right. But if posters avoid following a prepend with a colon, this
issue won't be an issue.

What of those readers that truncate long lines or as in your app's case
oddly truncate subject lines that have mulitple "OT:" in them? I'd think
that the multiple tree roots would be the more desirable consequence.

Neil