Gasohol

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ups.com...
You know I've been wondering: Does the Alka Seltzer trick really check to
see if alcohol is present? I'm no chemist, but I wonder if the Alka Seltzer
is just reacting with the water that most alcohols will attract from the
moisture in the air.

How about it? Any chemists in the group? If the mogas were blended with
alcohol with low water content, would the Alka Seltzer fizz at all? Maybe
the best test is still the "line on the beaker" test.

Well, we've been down this road before, back when the Alky test first
came on the scene. Some chemist here ended up concluding that the
test was valid, but I'm always open to hearing other thoughts on the
matter.

If the danged test DIDN'T work, that could ruin my whole day...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Seems to me the best test would be to do the alka seltzer test right alongside the 'water to the line' test, using the
same fuel sample, preferable a known dirty gasoline sample...

"Blueskies" wrote in message
et...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
You know I've been wondering: Does the Alka Seltzer trick really check
to
see if alcohol is present? I'm no chemist, but I wonder if the Alka
Seltzer
is just reacting with the water that most alcohols will attract from
the
moisture in the air.

How about it? Any chemists in the group? If the mogas were blended
with
alcohol with low water content, would the Alka Seltzer fizz at all?
Maybe
the best test is still the "line on the beaker" test.

Well, we've been down this road before, back when the Alky test first
came on the scene. Some chemist here ended up concluding that the
test was valid, but I'm always open to hearing other thoughts on the
matter.

If the danged test DIDN'T work, that could ruin my whole day...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Seems to me the best test would be to do the alka seltzer test right
alongside the 'water to the line' test, using the
same fuel sample, preferable a known dirty gasoline sample...


Two of the more knowledgeable contributors have stated that the Alka Seltzer
reacts with the water.

Logically, one could split a fuel sample into two parts and test both.
Then, if the fuel passes the AlkaSeltzer test and fails the "line on the
beaker" test; then Clare and Bob will have been proved correct and we will
have also gained a means to determine that fuel has alcohol added, but has
not absorbed moisture.

However, if the Alka Seltzer fizzes and the combined water and alcohol rises
above the "line on the beaker"; then the fuel will have failed both tests
and nothing at all will have been proved--because, as far as I know, the
"line on the beaker" does not seperately determine the amounts of water and
alcohol in the fuel sample.

Really, the only way that I know to correctly "do the science" is to
purchase a small amount (perhaps a liter) of anhydrous ethanol from a
medical supply and perform a series of tests on a variety of
samples--including samples of known pure and dry avgas and mogas. For the
moment, I am unwilling to undertake the project, and also I believe that
Clare and Bob are correct.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote

Really, the only way that I know to correctly "do the science" is to
purchase a small amount (perhaps a liter) of anhydrous ethanol from a
medical supply and perform a series of tests on a variety of
samples--including samples of known pure and dry avgas and mogas. For the
moment, I am unwilling to undertake the project, and also I believe that
Clare and Bob are correct.

How sure are we that the gasohol in service station tanks contain no water?

Is it possible that all tanks containing gasohol contain at least some water
dissolved?

Is it a certainty that the alcohol added to gasoline contains no dissolved
water?

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Does anyone know, for
CERTAIN, any of these questions?

My guess is that all service station tanks, (unless they have never had
straight gas, and that they are BRAND NEW) have had an opportunity to get
some water in their tanks. If that is the case, and you put gasohol in
them, the gasohol samples will contain some dissolved water, and the seltzer
test will work.

If that is the case, doing a scientific test with clean gas and adding water
free alcohol will prove nothing.
--
Jim in NC

In rec.aviation.owning Morgans wrote:

"Peter Dohm" wrote

Really, the only way that I know to correctly "do the science" is to
purchase a small amount (perhaps a liter) of anhydrous ethanol from a
medical supply and perform a series of tests on a variety of
samples--including samples of known pure and dry avgas and mogas. For the
moment, I am unwilling to undertake the project, and also I believe that
Clare and Bob are correct.

How sure are we that the gasohol in service station tanks contain no water?

Is it possible that all tanks containing gasohol contain at least some water
dissolved?

Is it a certainty that the alcohol added to gasoline contains no dissolved
water?

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Does anyone know, for
CERTAIN, any of these questions?

My guess is that all service station tanks, (unless they have never had
straight gas, and that they are BRAND NEW) have had an opportunity to get
some water in their tanks. If that is the case, and you put gasohol in
them, the gasohol samples will contain some dissolved water, and the seltzer
test will work.

If that is the case, doing a scientific test with clean gas and adding water
free alcohol will prove nothing.

Finding water free alcohol is basically impossible.

Alcohol will absorb about 2-3% water by volume as soon as it is exposed
to normal air, and that is what you will find in a medical supply
alcohol that is about 98%..

So if everything is kept as dry as possible, you can expect gas that
is 10% alcohol to be at least .2% water minimum.

Whether .2% water is enough to fizz an Alka-Seltzer tablet I have no idea.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Whether .2% water is enough to fizz an Alka-Seltzer tablet I have no idea.

I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I've run almost
9,000 gallons of mogas through Atlas' Lycoming O-540, without a
burp.

In that time, I would be willing to bet that SOME ethanol-polluted
gasoline has run though his veins. It almost seems inevitable.

Personally, I am skeptical that gasohol is going to harm my 1974-
vintage aircraft. I use the damn stuff in every other gasoline engine
I own, including my 1986 Goldwing, my 1995 Toyota, my 1995 Ford van,
my 1997 Subaru, my 2000 Mustang, my three lawn-mowers, my two yard
blowers, and my one snowblower -- ALL without problems.

But, hey, if the FAA says it's bad, I gotta believe 'em -- so I test
every tank for alcohol.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote

Personally, I am skeptical that gasohol is going to harm my 1974-
vintage aircraft. I use the damn stuff in every other gasoline engine
I own, including my 1986 Goldwing, my 1995 Toyota, my 1995 Ford van,
my 1997 Subaru, my 2000 Mustang, my three lawn-mowers, my two yard
blowers, and my one snowblower -- ALL without problems.

But, hey, if the FAA says it's bad, I gotta believe 'em -- so I test
every tank for alcohol.

No doubt that you engine doesn't give a crap, but your fuel system could be
a different story.

I have seen pictures of fuel line swollen to the size of sausages, and who
knows what the other rubber parts (O-rings, fuel bladders, if you have them)
would look like, and how much alcohol it would take to get it to swell.

I think you are wise to keep on testing. If it were me, I would want to
know if the seltzer test worked as reliably as the add water test, and how
the seltzer would work on a fresh batch of alcohol.

Perhaps you can catch the gas tanker starting to fill a station's tanks, and
get a sample of gasohol right off the tanker, where it is less likely to
have gotten mixed with water, from storage tanks.
--
Jim in NC

The water line test works consistently and, if you have the graduated tube
from Petersen will give a fairly accurate percentage. Except for here, I
have never heard of the Alka Seltzer test.

mike

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

I think you are wise to keep on testing. If it were me, I would want to
know if the seltzer test worked as reliably as the add water test, and how
the seltzer would work on a fresh batch of alcohol.
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 3 Jun 2007, Morgans wrote:

I have seen pictures of fuel line swollen to the size of sausages, and
who knows what the other rubber parts (O-rings, fuel bladders, if you
have them) would look like, and how much alcohol it would take to get it
to swell.

I'm no expert on the matter, but it's my understanding that that sort of
damage is done by methanol, as used in the early gasohol, but not by the
ethanol that's used in more recent times. Is that incorrect?

-Dan

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ups.com...
Whether .2% water is enough to fizz an Alka-Seltzer tablet I have no idea.

I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I've run almost
9,000 gallons of mogas through Atlas' Lycoming O-540, without a
burp.

In that time, I would be willing to bet that SOME ethanol-polluted
gasoline has run though his veins. It almost seems inevitable.

Personally, I am skeptical that gasohol is going to harm my 1974-
vintage aircraft. I use the damn stuff in every other gasoline engine
I own, including my 1986 Goldwing, my 1995 Toyota, my 1995 Ford van,
my 1997 Subaru, my 2000 Mustang, my three lawn-mowers, my two yard
blowers, and my one snowblower -- ALL without problems.

But, hey, if the FAA says it's bad, I gotta believe 'em -- so I test
every tank for alcohol.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



If the alka seltzer test is good, I would think the STC folks would promote it as a way to detect alcohol, but they
don't. They say to do the water to the line test.

Peter, you need to read over the water to the line test. It starts out with a known quantity of water, and then if the
apparent volume increases it has absorbed alcohol. Depending on the beaker you are using, you can then calculate the
amount of alcohol absorbed and therefore the amount of alcohol in the 'fuel' sample.

Jay, didn't you say you had a fuel hose leak at your last annual? Be very careful...

I do the water to the line test...

If the alka seltzer test is good, I would think the STC folks would
promote it as a way to detect alcohol, but they
don't. They say to do the water to the line test.

Peter, you need to read over the water to the line test. It starts out
with a known quantity of water, and then if the
apparent volume increases it has absorbed alcohol. Depending on the beaker
you are using, you can then calculate the
amount of alcohol absorbed and therefore the amount of alcohol in the
'fuel' sample.

Jay, didn't you say you had a fuel hose leak at your last annual? Be very
careful...

I do the water to the line test...


I agree that the "water to the line" test is the one to use. It might
mistake any water already absorbed as ethanol, but is obviously very
reliable for the intended purpose.

OTOH, the AlkaSeltzer test will only work with a fresh, dry peice of
AlkaSeltzer. If not kept hermetically sealed--usually in one of those
unbroken foil pouches--it won't fizz in a jar of tap water!

Nevertheless, the combination would be technically interesting.

Peter