Gasohol

ktbr writes:

The joke on us all is that gas pumped to your local distribution
terminal has no alcohol in it... At the distribution terminal are huge
tanks of gas, and smaller tnaks of alcohol, dye, additives, etc...
.....


It is true that all oil companies fuel is essentially the same,
and has been true for a long time.


Anyone here recall Sohio with Winter-Ice Guard?

A) Yes, pipeline carry fuel that is traded widely between companies.
Many times, groups of competitors jointly own the pipeline company.
Inland Corp == Sun, Union, Shell & BP

[There are large efficiencies of scale on same; it costs almost as
much to run a 6" dia pipeline as an 18" one.]

Exception was that no one would take low-end Sunoco as it was lower
octane than regular. [Sun mixed a % of the low end and high octane
right at the pump.]

B) Yes, all the additives are injected at the marketing terminal;
aka where the trucks are loaded. So yes, you should be able to
buy un-altered gas, with the right connections...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Want to emphesize that ALL gasoline has some water in it. It leaves
the refinery with some non-zero amount. It's stored in floating roof
tanks [1] that will let some in. It's in a truck in the rain... it's
there.

The question is getting rid of same.

We all know how -- let it sit quietly and it shall settle out. Then
open the bottom drain and watch. That might be under your wing, or
on a tank or inbetween...



[1] Gas does not go kabboom; gas vapor does. So it's stored not in
tanks as much as 4 million gallon cylinders with closed bottoms.

On top of the gas there's a big heavy floating roof that has a gasket
all the way around the edge. It floats directly atop the gas; ergo
no vapor space.

Then there's a sliding ladder deal so the pipeline operator can
climb up over the cylinder lip and back down onto the roof.

BUT, with the tank half full; there's a 2 million gallon trap atop
the roof to collect rainwater and snow; some of which leaks past
that gasket. Most is SUPPOSED to go through an articulated downspout
gadget INSIDE the tank and out the side at the bottom; but that's
only when the temperature is well above freezing...and they leak
a little too...

This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:


This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.

Here's some uncaped ones.

http://tinyurl.com/ypupkd

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net writes:

David Lesher wrote:


This was obvious to many pilots & few ground-dwellers, but now many
of the tanks also have a cap on top to keep some of the rain and
snow out. I was looking for a GoogleMap photo and all the ones I
worked on are now capped.

Here's some uncaped ones.

http://tinyurl.com/ypupkd


and one photo I just found:

https://www.piersystem.com/posted/42...017.125127.JPG


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Given the issue with alcohol, and the fact it is injected at the
last stage - truck loading -- why aren't the STA owners such as EAA
running campaigns to set up procedures for FBO's to procure untainted
autogas?

I can see the average truck loading terminal saying "we can't do that"
until they get a memo saying that they can...



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...


Given the issue with alcohol, and the fact it is injected at the
last stage - truck loading -- why aren't the STA owners such as EAA
running campaigns to set up procedures for FBO's to procure untainted
autogas?

I can see the average truck loading terminal saying "we can't do that"
until they get a memo saying that they can...



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

I really doubt that the terminal operators are so ignorant as to make that a
problem.

OTOH, there are some real problems for the FBO to overcome. One FBO owner,
who I know, stopped selling gasolene several years ago--saying that he
sometimes suspected that he lost more to evaporation than he pumped. That
was certainly an exageration, but the point was well made that the sales did
not justify the overhead--so now he only pumps Jet A, and gasolen powered
aircraft must taxi elsewhere on the field for their fuel. For many, if not
most, E-zero mogas would be an additional grade of fuel in a low volume
market--and one which would require additional infrastructure, and also
licensing, maintenance, and inspection of same.

Obviously, many also operate rental aircraft which they would prefer to run
on the most appropriate fuel. However, untill we are willing to guarantee
them a reasonable volume of sales, I don't see how they can do it. (They to
never bet on another man's game, but I will hazard a guess that an FBO needs
to use a full devivery every other month to keep the product available--and
at least twice that much to offer it at a competitive price. Any
requirement for above ground storage may also increase the required volume.)

Just my $0.02
Peter

"Peter Dohm" writes:


Given the issue with alcohol, and the fact it is injected at the
last stage - truck loading -- why aren't the STA owners such as EAA
running campaigns to set up procedures for FBO's to procure untainted
autogas?

I really doubt that the terminal operators are so ignorant as to make that a
problem.

Ha!


OTOH, there are some real problems for the FBO to overcome. One FBO owner,
who I know, stopped selling gasolene several years ago--saying that he
sometimes suspected that he lost more to evaporation than he pumped.


That's a "selling autogas" problem;
vice "finding un-Ethenol'ed autogas to sell" one.

Agreed the first may be an issue..

BUT if you have a gaggle of STA'ed aircraft owners based there and
you but not evry EatHerAndGetGas sells what they want and need....




--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"David Lesher" wrote in message ...
"Peter Dohm" writes:


Given the issue with alcohol, and the fact it is injected at the
last stage - truck loading -- why aren't the STA owners such as EAA
running campaigns to set up procedures for FBO's to procure untainted
autogas?

I really doubt that the terminal operators are so ignorant as to make that a
problem.

Ha!


OTOH, there are some real problems for the FBO to overcome. One FBO owner,
who I know, stopped selling gasolene several years ago--saying that he
sometimes suspected that he lost more to evaporation than he pumped.


That's a "selling autogas" problem;
vice "finding un-Ethenol'ed autogas to sell" one.

Agreed the first may be an issue..

BUT if you have a gaggle of STA'ed aircraft owners based there and
you but not evry EatHerAndGetGas sells what they want and need....




If this special clean gas w/o alcohol is brought to the airport and kept there, doesn't it pretty much miss the point of
the autogas STC? The whole idea was to be able to use normal autogas in these old low compression engines.

In article ,
"Blueskies" wrote:

If this special clean gas w/o alcohol is brought to the airport and kept
there, doesn't it pretty much miss the point of
the autogas STC? The whole idea was to be able to use normal autogas in these
old low compression engines.

I thought one objective was to avoid using the 100LL in engines that were prune
to lead fouling.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Bob Noel writes:


If this special clean gas w/o alcohol is brought to the airport and kept
there, doesn't it pretty much miss the point of
the autogas STC? The whole idea was to be able to use normal autogas in these
old low compression engines.

I thought one objective was to avoid using the 100LL in engines that were prune
to lead fouling.

I thought that autogas was popular for several reasons:

a) lead
b) price
.....

Gas bought by a FBO or club should be free of highway taxes but
I suspect will instead incur aviation fuel taxes...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433