Gasohol

"Jay Honeck" wrote

Personally, I am skeptical that gasohol is going to harm my 1974-
vintage aircraft. I use the damn stuff in every other gasoline engine
I own, including my 1986 Goldwing, my 1995 Toyota, my 1995 Ford van,
my 1997 Subaru, my 2000 Mustang, my three lawn-mowers, my two yard
blowers, and my one snowblower -- ALL without problems.

But, hey, if the FAA says it's bad, I gotta believe 'em -- so I test
every tank for alcohol.

No doubt that you engine doesn't give a crap, but your fuel system could be
a different story.

I have seen pictures of fuel line swollen to the size of sausages, and who
knows what the other rubber parts (O-rings, fuel bladders, if you have them)
would look like, and how much alcohol it would take to get it to swell.

I think you are wise to keep on testing. If it were me, I would want to
know if the seltzer test worked as reliably as the add water test, and how
the seltzer would work on a fresh batch of alcohol.

Perhaps you can catch the gas tanker starting to fill a station's tanks, and
get a sample of gasohol right off the tanker, where it is less likely to
have gotten mixed with water, from storage tanks.
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 04:05:01 GMT, wrote:


Almost everything on or dealing with airplanes "is just whatever"
with a pile of drawings and specifications to prove to the satisfaction
of the FAA that it is the correct "whatever" right down to the
material covering the seat.


Exactly. G

A point totally lost on non-pilots.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ups.com...
Whether .2% water is enough to fizz an Alka-Seltzer tablet I have no idea.

I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I've run almost
9,000 gallons of mogas through Atlas' Lycoming O-540, without a
burp.

In that time, I would be willing to bet that SOME ethanol-polluted
gasoline has run though his veins. It almost seems inevitable.

Personally, I am skeptical that gasohol is going to harm my 1974-
vintage aircraft. I use the damn stuff in every other gasoline engine
I own, including my 1986 Goldwing, my 1995 Toyota, my 1995 Ford van,
my 1997 Subaru, my 2000 Mustang, my three lawn-mowers, my two yard
blowers, and my one snowblower -- ALL without problems.

But, hey, if the FAA says it's bad, I gotta believe 'em -- so I test
every tank for alcohol.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



If the alka seltzer test is good, I would think the STC folks would promote it as a way to detect alcohol, but they
don't. They say to do the water to the line test.

Peter, you need to read over the water to the line test. It starts out with a known quantity of water, and then if the
apparent volume increases it has absorbed alcohol. Depending on the beaker you are using, you can then calculate the
amount of alcohol absorbed and therefore the amount of alcohol in the 'fuel' sample.

Jay, didn't you say you had a fuel hose leak at your last annual? Be very careful...

I do the water to the line test...

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Peter Dohm" wrote

Really, the only way that I know to correctly "do the science" is to
purchase a small amount (perhaps a liter) of anhydrous ethanol from a
medical supply and perform a series of tests on a variety of
samples--including samples of known pure and dry avgas and mogas. For
the
moment, I am unwilling to undertake the project, and also I believe that
Clare and Bob are correct.

How sure are we that the gasohol in service station tanks contain no
water?

Is it possible that all tanks containing gasohol contain at least some
water
dissolved?

Is it a certainty that the alcohol added to gasoline contains no dissolved
water?

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Does anyone know, for
CERTAIN, any of these questions?

My guess is that all service station tanks, (unless they have never had
straight gas, and that they are BRAND NEW) have had an opportunity to get
some water in their tanks. If that is the case, and you put gasohol in
them, the gasohol samples will contain some dissolved water, and the
seltzer
test will work.

If that is the case, doing a scientific test with clean gas and adding
water
free alcohol will prove nothing.
--
Jim in NC


According to annecdotes that I heard many years ago, service station gas
tanks have always contained some water--but since the gasolene is lighter,
the water settled to the bottom, so they were able to draw straight gasolene
from a floating pickup. According to those annecdotes, there could have
been as much as a couple of feet on water below the gasolene before it was
drawn of as part of periodic maintenance, with the result that the apparatus
were designed to shut off with a considerable level of liquid remaining in
the tanks--in order to avoid pumping water.

At this time, I have no reliable means to verify the the original story, nor
whether service stations now have sealed tanks with evaporative controls and
driers similar to the vehicles they service--which I doubt.

However, one obvious possibility is as droll as it is annoying.

Peter

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
Whether .2% water is enough to fizz an Alka-Seltzer tablet I have no
idea.

I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I've run almost
9,000 gallons of mogas through Atlas' Lycoming O-540, without a
burp.

In that time, I would be willing to bet that SOME ethanol-polluted
gasoline has run though his veins. It almost seems inevitable.

Personally, I am skeptical that gasohol is going to harm my 1974-
vintage aircraft. I use the damn stuff in every other gasoline engine
I own, including my 1986 Goldwing, my 1995 Toyota, my 1995 Ford van,
my 1997 Subaru, my 2000 Mustang, my three lawn-mowers, my two yard
blowers, and my one snowblower -- ALL without problems.

But, hey, if the FAA says it's bad, I gotta believe 'em -- so I test
every tank for alcohol.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


A lot of this is simply that the STC was never attempted, and therefore,
never accomplished using any form of "gasohol" and therefore, it is not an
approved fuel. It may cause problems as well, but that is outside my area
of knowledge.

Peter

Finding water free alcohol is basically impossible.

Alcohol will absorb about 2-3% water by volume as soon as it is exposed
to normal air, and that is what you will find in a medical supply
alcohol that is about 98%..

So if everything is kept as dry as possible, you can expect gas that
is 10% alcohol to be at least .2% water minimum.

Whether .2% water is enough to fizz an Alka-Seltzer tablet I have no idea.


--
Jim Pennino
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Jim,
Following your line of thinking...

I believe underground gasoline storage tanks have their
pickup point some distance off of the bottom of the tank
to avoid picking up the water that IS on the tank bottom.

Periodically, the bottom water is siphoned off to keep the
water level below the pickup point. This is what they do
at our airport for the underground avgas tanks and at my
local gas station.

If one applies this same thinking to underground gasohol
storage tanks, it is apparent how we get... Alka-Seltzer fizz.

Could one envision the Alka-Seltzer test ever becoming
a legitimate and legal test for the presents of alcohol?

No in this lifetime, IMO!!!!!

No way is this method ever going to be approved
as good science by an authoritive body....
even tho' we might know INDIRECTLY how and why
water contaminated alcohol fizzes.

What a way to get yer butt sued! 8-)


-Barnyard BOb-

If the alka seltzer test is good, I would think the STC folks would
promote it as a way to detect alcohol, but they
don't. They say to do the water to the line test.

Peter, you need to read over the water to the line test. It starts out
with a known quantity of water, and then if the
apparent volume increases it has absorbed alcohol. Depending on the beaker
you are using, you can then calculate the
amount of alcohol absorbed and therefore the amount of alcohol in the
'fuel' sample.

Jay, didn't you say you had a fuel hose leak at your last annual? Be very
careful...

I do the water to the line test...


I agree that the "water to the line" test is the one to use. It might
mistake any water already absorbed as ethanol, but is obviously very
reliable for the intended purpose.

OTOH, the AlkaSeltzer test will only work with a fresh, dry peice of
AlkaSeltzer. If not kept hermetically sealed--usually in one of those
unbroken foil pouches--it won't fizz in a jar of tap water!

Nevertheless, the combination would be technically interesting.

Peter

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
B A R R Y writes:

Ken Finney wrote:

I already am, but there an STC for diesels in 172s.


Running on Jet-A, not Biodiesel.

Which is just kerosene...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

There are really three of issues (that I can recall) he
1) A diesel will run on any hydrocarbon fuel that it can pump and meter.
2) Different seals and hoses are compatible with different
chemicals--although it would be no surprise to find that all were compatible
with biodiesel.
3) Certified aircraft/engines require fuels authorized in the type
certificate and/or an STC.

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message .. .



According to annecdotes that I heard many years ago, service station gas
tanks have always contained some water--but since the gasolene is lighter,
the water settled to the bottom, so they were able to draw straight gasolene
from a floating pickup. According to those annecdotes, there could have
been as much as a couple of feet on water below the gasolene before it was
drawn of as part of periodic maintenance, with the result that the apparatus
were designed to shut off with a considerable level of liquid remaining in
the tanks--in order to avoid pumping water.

At this time, I have no reliable means to verify the the original story, nor
whether service stations now have sealed tanks with evaporative controls and
driers similar to the vehicles they service--which I doubt.

However, one obvious possibility is as droll as it is annoying.

Peter


It seems to me that if there were a considerable amount of water in the gasoline tanks, and those tanks were filled with
alcohol laced gasoline, then the effect would be the same as the 'water to the line test'; in other words the alcohol
would be drawn from the gasohol mix and the user would have fuel that does not satisfy the octane ratings as posted on
the pump. The bonus would maybe result in gasoline being pumped that contained less alcohol than the supplier
intended...

On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 10:38:20 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:

I'll bet it really lasts a loooong time in your snow blower, this time of
year! ggg

And that, indeed, is the point of the exercise!

The denatured gasoline evidently starts breaking down in a month.
Straight gas in a year.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
forthcoming from HarperCollins www.flyingtigersbook.com