What F-102 units were called up for Viet Nam

Ed Rasimus posted:

Juvat wrote:

Jeez...you're reading waaaay too much into Scott's posts IMO. The
original question you will recall had to do with ANG F-102 units
called up. He posited none due to the mission. He was correct on that
score. Yes? No?

Well, I think you're word-smithing a bit here.

No sir...simply reading the question as posted (looking up at the
thread topic). If the topic were "F-102s units deployed to SEA" you
might have a leg to stand on. Honest, I've got the whole thread saved
because the topic is interesting and was going to post some details
that others beat me to the punch.

If we are searching for full unit deployments of F-102,
specifically from ANG units, for SEA, then I'm not sure that there were any.

Respectfully, you do know the answer. None. I will direct you to the
book by Gross...published by the USAF Office of History.

Well, again. Here the question revolves around the somewhat belabored
point of the two political parties in America. The fact is, that the
President probably could have avoide military service entirely. We
have a lot of documentation that his predecessor was successful and
arguably when he was avoiding, a lot less "privileged" than Bush.

No argument...but we're getting off on a tangent I suspect.

Now, as you well understand, Bush went through a full year of UPT,
then the various required USAF survival schools, then full operational
qualification and a couple of years of ANG service flying a Century
Series jet. That seems to me (based on what I know of
single-engine/single-seat aviation) a somewhat hazardous occupation.

You and I have differing POV on what constitutes GWB becoming MR and
maintaining that status. I'll agree he did achieve MR status, but that
as far as I will go...

However, I'm somewhat surprised that you consider he met all his
obligations. Or have I inferred something you are not implying?

Belay that last...it is not my desire to let this thread turn into a
groveling, low speed, knife fight at the bottom of the TRA on ths
subject of GWB...but I can.

This was in a period in which the aircraft which he was qualified in
was continously deployed to SEA. I'd say there was a little bit more
than "ZERO chance" of winding up in harm's way. Again, arguably a bit
more chance than being a body-guarded PIO clerk who spent 151 days of
a year tour in SEA.

And I suspect if the names were reversed you would find it EQUALLY
plausible that the swinging dick that served in SEA had a better
chance of going into harm's way than a guy that was suspended from
flying status in Aug 1972 for failing to take a physical.

The continual deployment (despite the fairly dismal combat
effectiveness) of the F-102 during SEA seems to disagree with your
last statement here.

Fair enough, and fairly close in the details, I believe that F-102s
were gone from SEA by Jul 1970. Yes? No?

I should have posited that had the NVAF threat been deem
greater...there would have been a greater force than four Dets of
roughly 6 jets each. Mea Culpa.

No one thought the Beagles were coming, but there was a lot of
apprehension about a singleton MiG-17 or 21 making a penetration over
Laos into the Thai bases or across the DMZ to Danang. An alert
interceptor force was always deployed.

I'd be willing to speculate that "somebody" in 13th/7th AF thought
IL-28s were a threat. The reason for my statement is simply that I've
read about the Beagle threat perception in CHECO reports, inferred on
my part becasue the reports mention the Beagle being able to reach
Saigon.

Juvat

Juvat wrote:

Ed Rasimus posted:

Fair enough, and fairly close in the details, I believe that F-102s
were gone from SEA by Jul 1970. Yes? No?



I should have posited that had the NVAF threat been deem
greater...there would have been a greater force than four Dets of
roughly 6 jets each. Mea Culpa.

No one thought the Beagles were coming, but there was a lot of
apprehension about a singleton MiG-17 or 21 making a penetration over
Laos into the Thai bases or across the DMZ to Danang. An alert
interceptor force was always deployed.

I'd be willing to speculate that "somebody" in 13th/7th AF thought
IL-28s were a threat. The reason for my statement is simply that I've
read about the Beagle threat perception in CHECO reports, inferred on
my part becasue the reports mention the Beagle being able to reach
Saigon.

Juvat

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

Juvat wrote:

Ed Rasimus posted:

The continual deployment (despite the fairly dismal combat
effectiveness) of the F-102 during SEA seems to disagree with your
last statement here.

Fair enough, and fairly close in the details, I believe that F-102s
were gone from SEA by Jul 1970. Yes? No?

No. At least as I recall, and posted. There were still F-102s deployed
in '72 when I was back at Korat in the F-4. Danang and Udorn I
believe. But, I've been wrong in the past....there was, after all, the
fateful decision to marry my first wife.

I should have posited that had the NVAF threat been deem
greater...there would have been a greater force than four Dets of
roughly 6 jets each. Mea Culpa.

Realistically, the NVAF threat was small, yet, the need for an air
defense response existed and it made more sense to deploy those
specialized aircraft and retain the mission flexibility of other
tactical jets that could also carry iron up N.


No one thought the Beagles were coming, but there was a lot of
apprehension about a singleton MiG-17 or 21 making a penetration over
Laos into the Thai bases or across the DMZ to Danang. An alert
interceptor force was always deployed.

I'd be willing to speculate that "somebody" in 13th/7th AF thought
IL-28s were a threat. The reason for my statement is simply that I've
read about the Beagle threat perception in CHECO reports, inferred on
my part becasue the reports mention the Beagle being able to reach
Saigon.

I'm always bothered by the "historians" and "statisticians" who quote
from CHECO and Red Baron reports. In a few years this crap will go
unrefuted, but while a few crusty *******s are still alive, we'll
throw a bull-**** flag occasionally.

If the IL-28s, parked at Gia Lam were a threat, we should have taken
them off the ramp. We could have done it on any given day. We all knew
where they were and had the wherewithal to do it. The ROE prevented it
until '72 when we were finally allowed to jettison on the airfields.

The air attack threat was more realistically from a MiG 17 or 21 with
a pair of bombs making a quick dash in-country. During several years
of the bombing pause, the MiGs operated further south than the main
bases in Pack VI, including Vinh and Dong Hoi. It would have been well
within the capabiltiy of the little jets to make a run at NKP, Udorn,
Ubon or Danang.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

Ed Rasimus posted:


No. At least as I recall, and posted. There were still F-102s deployed
in '72 when I was back at Korat in the F-4. Danang and Udorn I
believe. But, I've been wrong in the past....

I think you are mistaken, from reading Michel referencing the F-4s
sitting alert at Udorn and flying CAPs on Laos/NVN border. Perhaps he
missed this detail.

According to Pete Stickney's post...
The 64th FIS was inactivated in November '69,
with the 509th FIS once again picking up the Don Muang det. Operations
at Da Nang ended in ealy '70, and the Don Muang det was closed in late
May. On 24 July, 1970, the 509th FIS was inactivated. The 82nd FIS,
which had been at Naha AB, and had been supplying alert dets in Korea,
inactivated in May, 71.

So my question would be...what unit in 1972 since all the PACAF F-102s
were history (so to speak). I suspect that you honestly don't know,
but that may not alter your recollection (right or wrong).

Realistically, the NVAF threat was small, yet, the need for an air
defense response existed and it made more sense to deploy those
specialized aircraft and retain the mission flexibility of other
tactical jets that could also carry iron up N.

Apparently only until Jul 70 for the 509th, and May of 71 for the 82d.

Regarding my reference to CHECO reports...

I'm always bothered by the "historians" and "statisticians" who quote
from CHECO and Red Baron reports.

Hmmm, imagine folks like myself actually believing the contemporaneous
reporting of tactics, trends, and analysis by the likes of Robert
Futrell and Warren Thompson.

I am certainly a skeptical asshole, looking for mutiple sources.

In a few years this crap will go
unrefuted, but while a few crusty *******s are still alive, we'll
throw a bull-**** flag occasionally.

Fair enough...you tossed out the F-102s still in SEA in 1972. That may
well proved to be a bull-**** flag *or* simply bull-****. Does that
mean we ignore you if you prove to be incorrect on this matter of
fact? Not at all. The problem I found with oral history is the lack of
contemporaneous documentation.

If the IL-28s, parked at Gia Lam were a threat,...

Which would support the reason for having F-102s at TSN and Don
Muang..

The air attack threat was more realistically from a MiG 17 or 21 with
a pair of bombs making a quick dash in-country...

Which explains the Det at Da Nang however long that lasted (1970
according to Stickney's research), and certainly not past Jul 72 when
the 366th TFW moved to Thailand...and Udorn Det whenever it closed.

Juvat

Juvat wrote:

Ed Rasimus posted:


No. At least as I recall, and posted. There were still F-102s deployed
in '72 when I was back at Korat in the F-4. Danang and Udorn I
believe. But, I've been wrong in the past....

I think you are mistaken, from reading Michel referencing the F-4s
sitting alert at Udorn and flying CAPs on Laos/NVN border. Perhaps he
missed this detail.

In "Clashes" Michel is dealing with MiG engagements, not with air
defense alerts. Clashes has a lot of good research behind it and
Marshall has the experience to back up that of which he writes. But,
even he makes mistakes, such as calling all the ECM pods for the war,
QRC-160.

Certainly there were F-4s on alert at Udorn and absolutely they were
flying CAP, but CAP is a different mission than air defense and alert
can be for a number of mission options--I sat alert at Korat in 105's,
but that was SAR and ground attack alert. And, I sat alert at Korat in
F-4Es, but that also was for ground attack.


According to Pete Stickney's post...
The 64th FIS was inactivated in November '69,
with the 509th FIS once again picking up the Don Muang det. Operations
at Da Nang ended in ealy '70, and the Don Muang det was closed in late
May. On 24 July, 1970, the 509th FIS was inactivated. The 82nd FIS,
which had been at Naha AB, and had been supplying alert dets in Korea,
inactivated in May, 71.

So my question would be...what unit in 1972 since all the PACAF F-102s
were history (so to speak). I suspect that you honestly don't know,
but that may not alter your recollection (right or wrong).

I honestly don't know what unit was deployed, but I'm fairly confident
in the recollection that 102s were still in SEA in '72.

Realistically, the NVAF threat was small, yet, the need for an air
defense response existed and it made more sense to deploy those
specialized aircraft and retain the mission flexibility of other
tactical jets that could also carry iron up N.

Apparently only until Jul 70 for the 509th, and May of 71 for the 82d.

Regarding my reference to CHECO reports...

I'm always bothered by the "historians" and "statisticians" who quote
from CHECO and Red Baron reports.

Hmmm, imagine folks like myself actually believing the contemporaneous
reporting of tactics, trends, and analysis by the likes of Robert
Futrell and Warren Thompson.

I certainly like Thompson. His compilation of history in "To Hanoi and
Back" is excellent. Still, I like to deal with people who actually
flew the missions more than folks who are familiar with the bowels of
the AU library and how to run a micro-fiche machine.

I am certainly a skeptical asshole, looking for mutiple sources.

In a few years this crap will go
unrefuted, but while a few crusty *******s are still alive, we'll
throw a bull-**** flag occasionally.

Fair enough...you tossed out the F-102s still in SEA in 1972. That may
well proved to be a bull-**** flag *or* simply bull-****. Does that
mean we ignore you if you prove to be incorrect on this matter of
fact? Not at all. The problem I found with oral history is the lack of
contemporaneous documentation.

If the IL-28s, parked at Gia Lam were a threat,...

Which would support the reason for having F-102s at TSN and Don
Muang..

The air attack threat was more realistically from a MiG 17 or 21 with
a pair of bombs making a quick dash in-country...

Which explains the Det at Da Nang however long that lasted (1970
according to Stickney's research), and certainly not past Jul 72 when
the 366th TFW moved to Thailand...and Udorn Det whenever it closed.

If the 366th moved out of Danang in July of '72 at the peak of
Linebacker, it's a surprise to me. Of course, I was a member of a
squadron that was deactivated at Korat in September of '72, so it's
possible. There were movements all over the theater at that time,
including the 35th and 67the TFSs coming from Kadena and the entire
354th TFW from CONUS as well as the F-4s from the 4th at S-J. And
don't forget the F-111s and even the 561st WW from George.

What was at Danang then and where did the 366th go in Thailand? Only
the Marine F-4 det?

Udorn still had a full house of F-4s and RFs until I left theater in
July of '73.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

Ed Rasimus posted:

In "Clashes" Michel is dealing with MiG engagements, not with air
defense alerts. Clashes has a lot of good research behind it and
Marshall has the experience to back up that of which he writes.

True...but wouldyou acknowledge that F-102s did fly CAPs and not
simply sitting cocked at the end of a runway? And can you agree that
the F-102 shot down by the MiG-21 in Feb 1968 was flying CAP?

Certainly there were F-4s on alert at Udorn and absolutely they were
flying CAP, but CAP is a different mission than air defense and alert
can be for a number of mission options--I sat alert at Korat in 105's,
but that was SAR and ground attack alert. And, I sat alert at Korat in
F-4Es, but that also was for ground attack.

So taking this just a little bit farther...if they were still in place
at Udorn in 1972 they just might have flown CAPs, they might have even
practiced some ACM vs the local air-to-air sqdns (13th, 555th, and TDY
523d, etc). Yet when the F-8s came to town to play, no mention of
giving the F-102s a taste. No mention of using F-102s for DACM for the
benefit of the air-to-air guys. [FWIW, Ritchie does say that the 432d
selected crews for the air-to-air mission into RP-6.]

I honestly don't know what unit was deployed, but I'm fairly confident
in the recollection that 102s were still in SEA in '72.

I certainly like Thompson. His compilation of history in "To Hanoi and
Back" is excellent.

Fair enough...since I got you to acknowledge that Thompson just might
have his **** in one sock, look at page 309 of his book. Fourth entry
down...Udorn...number of F-102s there in 1967 = 6, number there in
July 1972 = ZERO. Number of F-102s in SEA in July 1972 = ZERO.

He could be mistaken, his data is from a HQ document and not an eye
witness account.

Still, I like to deal with people who actually
flew the missions more than folks who are familiar with the bowels of
the AU library and how to run a micro-fiche machine.

I resemble that remark...Fair enough...Idle --*Chaff* --*Flare* -- I'm
just having a problem wondering whose "there i was story" to believe.

If the 366th moved out of Danang in July of '72 at the peak of
Linebacker, it's a surprise to me.

Ummm, respectfully are you being sarcastic with the last part? See
Thompson page 223...talks about the movement of the 366th from Da Nang
to Takhli in June of 1972.

So I ask the question again, sincerely, who do we believe? And why am
I doing all the citations/research?

Juvat

Juvat wrote:

Ed Rasimus posted:

In "Clashes" Michel is dealing with MiG engagements, not with air
defense alerts. Clashes has a lot of good research behind it and
Marshall has the experience to back up that of which he writes.

True...but wouldyou acknowledge that F-102s did fly CAPs and not
simply sitting cocked at the end of a runway? And can you agree that
the F-102 shot down by the MiG-21 in Feb 1968 was flying CAP?

I would acknowledge that F-102s flew. I would acknowledge that F-102s
even did some ersatz ground attack. I would assert that in 150 North
Vietnam missions in Rolling Thunder, Linebacker I & II, I never once
was supported by an F-102 CAP. Not once. I never was supported by and
F-102 escort, nor in a package with an F-102 sweep either. Never had
an F-102 participate in any NVN mission that I was on.

Certainly there were F-4s on alert at Udorn and absolutely they were
flying CAP, but CAP is a different mission than air defense and alert
can be for a number of mission options--I sat alert at Korat in 105's,
but that was SAR and ground attack alert. And, I sat alert at Korat in
F-4Es, but that also was for ground attack.

So taking this just a little bit farther...if they were still in place
at Udorn in 1972 they just might have flown CAPs, they might have even
practiced some ACM vs the local air-to-air sqdns (13th, 555th, and TDY
523d, etc). Yet when the F-8s came to town to play, no mention of
giving the F-102s a taste. No mention of using F-102s for DACM for the
benefit of the air-to-air guys. [FWIW, Ritchie does say that the 432d
selected crews for the air-to-air mission into RP-6.]

I doubt that they would have flown and briefed, scheduled ACM. It was
simply against AF policy to fly dissimilar in those days. And, it must
be considered that the mission was to fly combat, not to train locally
in theater. There was the occasional hassle during RTB, but no
scheduled, briefed, training objectives established DACM.

Certainly Ritchie is correct. In July of '72, the 7th AF DO toured the
Thai bases. He directed that since the Linebacker mission was
critical, each base would establish "primary Linebacker crews"--folks
who specialized in a particular mission, who would be first scheduled
for Pack VI every day and who would carry the load. That meant Udorn
established specialized A/A crews. It's the same policy that had me
assigned as a primary F-4 Hunter/Killer SEAD guy.

I honestly don't know what unit was deployed, but I'm fairly confident
in the recollection that 102s were still in SEA in '72.

I certainly like Thompson. His compilation of history in "To Hanoi and
Back" is excellent.

Fair enough...since I got you to acknowledge that Thompson just might
have his **** in one sock, look at page 309 of his book. Fourth entry
down...Udorn...number of F-102s there in 1967 = 6, number there in
July 1972 = ZERO. Number of F-102s in SEA in July 1972 = ZERO.

I'll concede. Could be. I'm working strictly from memory. A good
memory generally, but capable of error.

He could be mistaken, his data is from a HQ document and not an eye
witness account.

Still, I like to deal with people who actually
flew the missions more than folks who are familiar with the bowels of
the AU library and how to run a micro-fiche machine.

I resemble that remark...Fair enough...Idle --*Chaff* --*Flare* -- I'm
just having a problem wondering whose "there i was story" to believe.

T'was Ronaldus Maximus that said, "trust, but verify." Can't argue
with that.

If the 366th moved out of Danang in July of '72 at the peak of
Linebacker, it's a surprise to me.

Ummm, respectfully are you being sarcastic with the last part? See
Thompson page 223...talks about the movement of the 366th from Da Nang
to Takhli in June of 1972.

So I ask the question again, sincerely, who do we believe? And why am
I doing all the citations/research?

OK, I knew that Tahkli got the 4th deployment for S-J when the base
was re-activated. Didn't realize that the Gunfighters moved there as
well.

And, you're doing the research because you love it!


Juvat

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

Ed Rasimus wrote:

I would acknowledge that F-102s flew. I would acknowledge that F-102s
even did some ersatz ground attack. I would assert that in 150 North
Vietnam missions in Rolling Thunder, Linebacker I & II, I never once
was supported by an F-102 CAP. Not once. I never was supported by and
F-102 escort, nor in a package with an F-102 sweep either. Never had
an F-102 participate in any NVN mission that I was on.

I realize that second-hand accounts shared by "non-participants" is
viewed with contempt by many on this NG so if you happen to fall
into that category go ahead and stop reading now...

Having said that and for those who are interested, my Dad was one
of the first group of fighter pilots to operate supersonic fighters
(e.g: Dueces) with operational FIS squadrons back in the mid to
late '50's. A while back I shared with the NG a local newspaper
story about him ejecting from an F-102 over Wisconsin (predictably,
the nitpicker contingent here even picked apart THAT!) Anyway,
he especially loved the Duece's maneuverability and often spoke
fondly of the ol' bird. Seems Walt BJ who also flew the Duece felt
exactly the same way about it.

However, when the topic of F-102's being sent to Vietnam came
up (they were based out of Udorn which is where Dad was based
out of while flying the A-1E) he didn't have much to say about
it other than it was a waste of resources and -102's didn't belong
in SEA, period.

Just my 0.02

-Mike Marron

Ed Rasimus wrote:

Juvat wrote:

Ed Rasimus posted:

snip

If the 366th moved out of Danang in July of '72 at the peak of
Linebacker, it's a surprise to me.

Ummm, respectfully are you being sarcastic with the last part? See
Thompson page 223...talks about the movement of the 366th from Da Nang
to Takhli in June of 1972.

So I ask the question again, sincerely, who do we believe? And why am
I doing all the citations/research?

OK, I knew that Tahkli got the 4th deployment for S-J when the base
was re-activated. Didn't realize that the Gunfighters moved there as
well.

Squadrons of the 366th moved from DaNang, as stated. Offhand I don't
remember if they remained part of the 366th at first, or were put under some
other wing's control. Walt BJ can say, as he commanded one of the 366th's
squadrons (390th IIRR) at the time, and has mentioned the move in the past.

And, you're doing the research because you love it!

Speaking for myself, it's more often because I hate having to depend on
filktered, inaccurate accounts and urban legends, when the truth can be so
much more interesting (if less hyperbolic). But sometimes you come across a
nugget or vein of real gold in research, and you say "Ah Ha!, why they did
what they did now makes sense," and that is very satisfying.

Guy