New trainer from SZD Bielsko

On 23 Jun, 22:34, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:10:28 -0700, Ian
wrote:

How many gliders can recover from a spin which starts on the winch
launch? I really don't think the Puchacz can be blamed in such cases.

Sorry to repeat myself, but how many primary trainers really DO enter
an unintentional spin during a winch launch with an instructor on
board?

Do you mean how many do, or how many can?

In my opinion a primary trainer (the one that is used for early solo
flights) cannot be spin-resistent enough.

I disagree. I think the glider used for training should spin like a
top. The learner needs to know that this is something which can
happen, can be recovered from, and really shouldn't be allowed to
happen near the ground.

I like K21's, but their lack of spinnability is a mennace. I jave
flown at three different clubs where the message given - effectively -
to student pilots is "Today we are going to learn about something
called a spin. To do that, we are going to need a different glider
from the one you normally fly in, and we are going to have to do very
strange things to the controls." Subliminal message: "This won't
happen to you unless you want it to."

My first spin was in a Bocian - the one I was used to flying in as an
ab-initio, at Portmoak. One day my instructor said "You are flying to
slowly and over-ruddering your turns at the hill. One day you will
scare yourself ****less doing that. Let me demonstrate. I have
control..."

And he proceeded to scare me ****less. So I learned that spinning was
something which could happen to /me/ in gliders /I flew/, doing /
perfectly normal things/ - albeit not very competently.

I do not this a message of "Let's land and go up in a completely
different aircraft" would have made anything like the same
impression ...

Ian

And he proceeded to scare me ****less. So I learned that spinning was
something which could happen to /me/ in gliders /I flew/, doing /
perfectly normal things/ - albeit not very competently.

I do not this a message of "Let's land and go up in a completely
different aircraft" would have made anything like the same
impression ...

"a spin is a normal mode of flight - unsuitable for landing" unknown
British aerodynamicist.

Pretty much all students in my club http://soargbsc.com get spin
training. And not the kind where you yank the nose up 30 degrees and
then stomp on the rudder at the top. I slow the glider way down and
start a turn (at altitude) and tell the student that we're simulating a
runway overshoot while turning from base to final. I add bottom rudder
to "help the turn along" and over she goes and the nose never got above
the horizon. It's a wake up call for many and the mantra to maintain
speed and coordination in the pattern (sorry, circuit :-) ), finally
means something.

Tony V.

On 24 Jun, 16:39, Tony Verhulst wrote:

Pretty much all students in my clubhttp://soargbsc.comget spin
training. And not the kind where you yank the nose up 30 degrees and
then stomp on the rudder at the top.

One CFI (that's "Chief" over here, USAnians) I knew was very fond of
spinning - in a Bocian - from perfectly coordinated thermalling turns.
More than one experienced pilot on a site check came down having
learned something very useful.

Ian

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:55:39 -0700, Ian
wrote:


Do you mean how many do, or how many can?

How many *do*.
Pretty easy to stall any glider during a winch launch if you
intentionally pull back fully.


I disagree. I think the glider used for training should spin like a
top. The learner needs to know that this is something which can
happen, can be recovered from, and really shouldn't be allowed to
happen near the ground.

.... and if it happens...?
A benign glider significantly increases the chance of survival,
doesn't it?





Bye
Andreas

On 25 Jun, 12:51, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:55:39 -0700, Ian
wrote:

I disagree. I think the glider used for training should spin like a
top. The learner needs to know that this is something which can
happen, can be recovered from, and really shouldn't be allowed to
happen near the ground.

... and if it happens...?
A benign glider significantly increases the chance of survival,
doesn't it?

On the same principal training gliders could be fitted with elevator
backstops so that pupils could pull back as hard as they liked on the
winch with no danger of stalling.

Ian

"Ian" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 25 Jun, 12:51, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:55:39 -0700, Ian
wrote:

I disagree. I think the glider used for training should spin like a
top. The learner needs to know that this is something which can
happen, can be recovered from, and really shouldn't be allowed to
happen near the ground.

... and if it happens...?
A benign glider significantly increases the chance of survival,
doesn't it?

On the same principal training gliders could be fitted with elevator
backstops so that pupils could pull back as hard as they liked on the
winch with no danger of stalling.

Ian


How about watching the airspeed? If you maintain a margin over the loaded
stall speed, there no chance of stalling.

As for the ASK-21, you don't gain anything from pulling back anyway. The
highest winch launches are when the glider is flown at the best L/D angle of
attack - that's about neutral elevator..

Bill Daniels

On Jun 25, 7:21 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

How about watching the airspeed? If you maintain a margin over the loaded
stall speed, there no chance of stalling.

As for the ASK-21, you don't gain anything from pulling back anyway. The
highest winch launches are when the glider is flown at the best L/D angle of
attack - that's about neutral elevator..

Bill - Ian was being sarcastic...


Dan

"Dan G" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 25, 7:21 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

How about watching the airspeed? If you maintain a margin over the
loaded
stall speed, there no chance of stalling.

As for the ASK-21, you don't gain anything from pulling back anyway. The
highest winch launches are when the glider is flown at the best L/D angle
of
attack - that's about neutral elevator..

Bill - Ian was being sarcastic...


Dan


OK, I accept the sarcasm and appologise for being sharp.

However, in the US there are many glider pilots who have never flown a winch
launch and instinctively fear nose high attitudes. Even joking about full
up elevator and stalls on the wire is terrifying to them. I felt I had to
make it clear that you should not be anywhere near the stalling AOA.

Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer 2-33 does use full
up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate position of the release
hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile a trainer like a ASK-21 could
be in trouble if he misunderstands the difference.

It also concerns me that pilots with much experience on aero tow
transitioning to winch launch may have never considered the need to monitor
airspeed on a launch since the tug pilot has always done that for them.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:
Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer 2-33 does use full
up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate position of the release
hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile a trainer like a ASK-21 could
be in trouble if he misunderstands the difference.

True CG hooks were an option for 2-33s, and could probably still be
retrofitted if desired. A second Schweizer hook is mounted ahead of the
main wheel, to the left of the skid. From recent experience, the
handling during launch is similar to a K-13...

Marc

Bill Daniels schrieb:

Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer 2-33 does use full

Ubiquitous? I've never seen one in my life. Ok, I'm living in Europe.

up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate position of the release
hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile a trainer like a ASK-21 could
be in trouble if he misunderstands the difference.

That's what instructors are for.

It also concerns me that pilots with much experience on aero tow
transitioning to winch launch may have never considered the need to monitor
airspeed on a launch since the tug pilot has always done that for them.

That's what instructors are for.