Lazy Eight's

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:15:25 -0000, wrote:

Be sure your airplane is certified for 60 degree pitch!

No airplane is "certified for 60 degree pitch". Sixty degrees pitch qualifies
as an aerobatic maneuver. Airplanes *are* certified for aerobatics, but that is
solely a limitation on G-loading. Dick's description of the maneuver ("...60*
pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls...")
sounds unlikely to exceed the positive G limits for normal category.

Finally, the maneuver where Dick describes reaching 60 degrees of pitch is a
blind canyon escape maneuver, where you suddenly discover you've got granite
ahead and on both sides. It's the choice of the maneuver or going
two-dimensional on the canyon wall. Might I gently suggested that if you're
ever faced with the choice between A) Death or B) Violating FAA regs, that you
select B)?

Ron Wanttaja

seems to me the owner's manual on our Mooney says limits are 60
degrees bank and 30 degrees pitch. It also says the airplane should
not be spun.

I could be wrong about that.

As for practice of these manouvers? Do whatever you like. Probably it
would not be wise to post here, though, except as a hypothetical
question. There's nothing like a written record to influence courts or
insurance companies.

T




On Jun 24, 11:30 am, Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:15:25 -0000, wrote:
Be sure your airplane is certified for 60 degree pitch!

No airplane is "certified for 60 degree pitch". Sixty degrees pitch qualifies
as an aerobatic maneuver. Airplanes *are* certified for aerobatics, but that is
solely a limitation on G-loading. Dick's description of the maneuver ("...60*
pitch & 60* bank at 90* point to entry. Then at 0 mph, the nose falls...")
sounds unlikely to exceed the positive G limits for normal category.

Finally, the maneuver where Dick describes reaching 60 degrees of pitch is a
blind canyon escape maneuver, where you suddenly discover you've got granite
ahead and on both sides. It's the choice of the maneuver or going
two-dimensional on the canyon wall. Might I gently suggested that if you're
ever faced with the choice between A) Death or B) Violating FAA regs, that you
select B)?

Ron Wanttaja

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:36:11 -0000, wrote:

seems to me the owner's manual on our Mooney says limits are 60
degrees bank and 30 degrees pitch. It also says the airplane should
not be spun.

I could be wrong about that.

No, you are undoubtedly right. But there is no such thing as being "certified
for 60 degree pitch." The manufacturer can place any warning they wish in the
manual, but that's not the same as certification. The airplane is certified in
the normal (or utility) category, in the aerobatic category. But this is a *G*
limit, not an overt certification limit on bank or pitch angle. If Mooney said
the limits are 59 degrees bank and 29 degrees pitch, that STILL wouldn't make it
a "certification" limit.

From what I can tell, Part 91's only comment about aerobatics is that you have
to wear a 'chute...it doesn't seem to care about the certification category of
the aircraft. The 91.13 catch-all undoubtedly works, though.

As for practice of these manouvers? Do whatever you like. Probably it
would not be wise to post here, though, except as a hypothetical
question. There's nothing like a written record to influence courts or
insurance companies.

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being certified in
the aerobatic category. My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an annual
inspection. I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees
of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being
certified in
the aerobatic category.

Ron, of all people who should know the difference between certificated and
certified...


My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an annual
inspection.

Nor has any experimental aircraft. A once-a-year CONDITION inspection
though.


I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

Nor do you need a medical to fly a Light Sport Aircraft, which the FlyBaby
certainly is, only a LSA pilot OR HIGHER, which a PPC certainly is.. Being
a homebuilt and certificated as such, it HAS to have an N number.

Sheesh, you kids.

Jim



I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:44:11 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:

Sheesh, you kids.

Shhhh, Jim, I wuz settin' him up! :-)

Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:36:11 -0000, wrote:

seems to me the owner's manual on our Mooney says limits are 60
degrees bank and 30 degrees pitch. It also says the airplane should
not be spun.

I could be wrong about that.

No, you are undoubtedly right. But there is no such thing as being
"certified
for 60 degree pitch." The manufacturer can place any warning they wish in
the
manual, but that's not the same as certification. The airplane is
certified in
the normal (or utility) category, in the aerobatic category. But this is
a *G*
limit, not an overt certification limit on bank or pitch angle. If Mooney
said
the limits are 59 degrees bank and 29 degrees pitch, that STILL wouldn't
make it
a "certification" limit.

From what I can tell, Part 91's only comment about aerobatics is that you
have
to wear a 'chute...it doesn't seem to care about the certification
category of
the aircraft. The 91.13 catch-all undoubtedly works, though.

As for practice of these manouvers? Do whatever you like. Probably it
would not be wise to post here, though, except as a hypothetical
question. There's nothing like a written record to influence courts or
insurance companies.

Well, let's get this out of the way, then. I regularly exceed 30 degrees
of
pitch in my US-registered aircraft, despite the airplane not being
certified in
the aerobatic category. My 25-year-old airplane has never undergone an
annual
inspection. I haven't held a medical for about four years, yet I hold a
Private
Pilot license and fly my N-numbered aircraft regularly.

I'll just sit here and wait for the subpoenas and insurance cancellations,
then....

Ron Wanttaja

Actually, this explains a lot that had been made a little confusing by some
of the discussions which I had heard. In other words, just as a type certif
ied aircraft which falls within the LSA limitations of weight, speed and
configuration; the same is true for an amateur built experimental with the
appropriate operating limitations.

That leaves one question about which I am still curious. Do you happen to
know what pilot rating and medical certification requirements would exist
for the initial pilot of a new amateur built experimental (or a new design)
expected to comply with the LSA definitions.

Thanks,
Peter

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:51:58 -0400, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

That leaves one question about which I am still curious. Do you happen to
know what pilot rating and medical certification requirements would exist
for the initial pilot of a new amateur built experimental (or a new design)
expected to comply with the LSA definitions.

The FAA made this a bit more confusing than they had to. A couple years back,
they developed a *definition* of a "Light Sport Aircraft," at the same time they
developed two new certification categories, both with "Light Sport Aircraft" in
the names (Special Light Sport Aircraft and Experimental Light Sport Aircraft).

If an airplane meets the Light Sport Aircraft *definition*, then it can be flown
by anyone with a Sport Pilot license or higher. If the aircraft meets the
*definition*, a person with a Recreational/Private/Commercial/ATP license and a
valid Class III medical or higher may fly the airplane. The same individuals
may instead use a valid state drivers license in lieu of the standard medical,
PROVIDING their last medical "died a natural death" (e.g., just expired rather
than getting canceled) and they have not failed an FAA medical since.

It's like the "fourth step" in the standard FAA medical. You can fly operations
requiring a Class I for six months, then fly in operations only requiring a
Class II for the NEXT six months, and finally can execute Private Pilot
privileges for the next year. After that you, you can be a "Private Pilot
executing Sport Pilot privileges" for as long as you have a driver's license and
DON'T flunk an FAA medical.

The certification status of the airplane is immaterial...it can be normal
category, utility, aerobatic, experimental, limited, etc. If it *meets* the
Light Sport Aircraft definition, a Private Pilot can execute Sport Pilot
privileges and use a driver's license in lieu of a medical.

The specific aircraft certification categories (Special LSA and Experimental
LSA) implement simplified processes to gain airworthiness certificates and
simplified maintenance requirements.

I've got more details on my Fly Baby web page:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/lsa.html

Ron Wanttaja

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
Sixty degrees pitch qualifies as an aerobatic maneuver.

Maybe, but it seems that you're confusing acrobatic flight with parachute
requirements.

Hilton

On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:32:10 GMT, "Hilton" wrote:

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
Sixty degrees pitch qualifies as an aerobatic maneuver.

Maybe, but it seems that you're confusing acrobatic flight with parachute
requirements.

It's true, the Part 91 definition of aerobatics makes no mention of bank or
pitch angles. Part 23 lets the manufacturer define the maneuvers the aircraft
is allowed to do...looks to me that they can declare a plane "aerobatic" (by
meeting the structural requirements) even if it's banned from doing loops,
spins, or rolls.

Marketing might be a problem, though. :-)

Ron Wanttaja