New trainer from SZD Bielsko

At 15:43 24 June 2007, wrote:
On Jun 23, 3:51 am, Paul Hanson
wrote:
... The 50-3 was desinged in 78' I believe, the Perkoz
in 91'.
... Come on, it is a completely new aircraft; it just
uses
some of the same molds and parts as the 50-3.

'Completely New Aircraft', but:
- designed in 1991 (16 years ago)...
- uses some of the same molds...

I wish them all the best, but this hardly uses all
the
knowledge now available to us in 2007...

Best Regards, Dave 'YO'


Who cares?

If it does most of what the DG1000 can do but at the
price of a PW6 it deserves to be successful.

Ed

On 24 Jun, 16:39, Tony Verhulst wrote:

Pretty much all students in my clubhttp://soargbsc.comget spin
training. And not the kind where you yank the nose up 30 degrees and
then stomp on the rudder at the top.

One CFI (that's "Chief" over here, USAnians) I knew was very fond of
spinning - in a Bocian - from perfectly coordinated thermalling turns.
More than one experienced pilot on a site check came down having
learned something very useful.

Ian

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:55:39 -0700, Ian
wrote:


Do you mean how many do, or how many can?

How many *do*.
Pretty easy to stall any glider during a winch launch if you
intentionally pull back fully.


I disagree. I think the glider used for training should spin like a
top. The learner needs to know that this is something which can
happen, can be recovered from, and really shouldn't be allowed to
happen near the ground.

.... and if it happens...?
A benign glider significantly increases the chance of survival,
doesn't it?





Bye
Andreas

On 25 Jun, 12:51, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:55:39 -0700, Ian
wrote:

I disagree. I think the glider used for training should spin like a
top. The learner needs to know that this is something which can
happen, can be recovered from, and really shouldn't be allowed to
happen near the ground.

... and if it happens...?
A benign glider significantly increases the chance of survival,
doesn't it?

On the same principal training gliders could be fitted with elevator
backstops so that pupils could pull back as hard as they liked on the
winch with no danger of stalling.

Ian

"Ian" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 25 Jun, 12:51, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 07:55:39 -0700, Ian
wrote:

I disagree. I think the glider used for training should spin like a
top. The learner needs to know that this is something which can
happen, can be recovered from, and really shouldn't be allowed to
happen near the ground.

... and if it happens...?
A benign glider significantly increases the chance of survival,
doesn't it?

On the same principal training gliders could be fitted with elevator
backstops so that pupils could pull back as hard as they liked on the
winch with no danger of stalling.

Ian


How about watching the airspeed? If you maintain a margin over the loaded
stall speed, there no chance of stalling.

As for the ASK-21, you don't gain anything from pulling back anyway. The
highest winch launches are when the glider is flown at the best L/D angle of
attack - that's about neutral elevator..

Bill Daniels

On Jun 25, 7:21 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

How about watching the airspeed? If you maintain a margin over the loaded
stall speed, there no chance of stalling.

As for the ASK-21, you don't gain anything from pulling back anyway. The
highest winch launches are when the glider is flown at the best L/D angle of
attack - that's about neutral elevator..

Bill - Ian was being sarcastic...


Dan

On 25 Jun, 19:21, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Ian" wrote in message

On the same principal training gliders could be fitted with elevator
backstops so that pupils could pull back as hard as they liked on the
winch with no danger of stalling.

How about watching the airspeed? If you maintain a margin over the loaded
stall speed, there no chance of stalling.

That wasn't quite my point ...

However, drawing from what you say, we all agree, don't we, that
training and early solo gliders have to be suitable for pilots who
can't fly very well? The argument is therefore whether a good glider
at this stage is one which is easy or difficult to fly.

My personal belief is that it shouldn't be too easy. It's all very
well having a trainer which won't spin - and it would be easy enough
to make one which was almost impossible to stall - but these early
stages are surely the time when the foundations should be laid for
later. That's why the BGA has every ab initio in the UK religiously
checking the flaps on a K13 every time they launch.

I don't think a trainer has to be, or should be, vicious. It doesn't
have to flick into a spin, or invert on recovery, but I do think it
should spin easily and require a full recovery procedure.

As a parallel, I do a fair bit of sailing. When people ask me how to
learn, I always tell them to start, even if just for a few times, in a
dinghy rather than a yacht. Dinghy sailing teaches fast responses and
attentiveness: it's easy to slow down things for a keel boat but much
harder to go the other way. I still make a point of hiring a Wayfarer
at a local sailing centre a couple of times a year, preferably on a
good blowy day, to remind myself what it's like and sharpen my
responses.

Ian

"Dan G" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 25, 7:21 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

How about watching the airspeed? If you maintain a margin over the
loaded
stall speed, there no chance of stalling.

As for the ASK-21, you don't gain anything from pulling back anyway. The
highest winch launches are when the glider is flown at the best L/D angle
of
attack - that's about neutral elevator..

Bill - Ian was being sarcastic...


Dan


OK, I accept the sarcasm and appologise for being sharp.

However, in the US there are many glider pilots who have never flown a winch
launch and instinctively fear nose high attitudes. Even joking about full
up elevator and stalls on the wire is terrifying to them. I felt I had to
make it clear that you should not be anywhere near the stalling AOA.

Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer 2-33 does use full
up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate position of the release
hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile a trainer like a ASK-21 could
be in trouble if he misunderstands the difference.

It also concerns me that pilots with much experience on aero tow
transitioning to winch launch may have never considered the need to monitor
airspeed on a launch since the tug pilot has always done that for them.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:
Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer 2-33 does use full
up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate position of the release
hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile a trainer like a ASK-21 could
be in trouble if he misunderstands the difference.

True CG hooks were an option for 2-33s, and could probably still be
retrofitted if desired. A second Schweizer hook is mounted ahead of the
main wheel, to the left of the skid. From recent experience, the
handling during launch is similar to a K-13...

Marc

Bill Daniels schrieb:

Adding to my concern is that the ubiquitous US Schweizer 2-33 does use full

Ubiquitous? I've never seen one in my life. Ok, I'm living in Europe.

up elevator on a winch launch due to the unfortunate position of the release
hook. A pilot transitioning to even a docile a trainer like a ASK-21 could
be in trouble if he misunderstands the difference.

That's what instructors are for.

It also concerns me that pilots with much experience on aero tow
transitioning to winch launch may have never considered the need to monitor
airspeed on a launch since the tug pilot has always done that for them.

That's what instructors are for.