Hidden costs of ethenol

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:53:23 -0700, Lou wrote:

Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
change over
to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
that
will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
base.

It's been publicized but apparently our congress critters missed that.
Even with higher yields of corn and in production we don't have enough
total farm land available to grow enough corn to produce enough
alcohol to support a major switch to alcohol as a fuel. That's the
main reason they talk about switch grass and bio generation of
alcohol. However the Canadian's have it right using hemp which is
easy to grow and gives a much higher yield of Alcohol while consuming
much less energy to grow and process. Again, our government has a
hangup with the word hemp, associating all hemp with the recreational
stuff.
BTW, we already have a 50 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol
while we are subsidizing the growing of corn and alcohol processing
plants.

Lou

David Deutsch, Jimmy Carter's Undersecretary of Energy (let's see the
tree-huggers impeach THAT source!), has calculated that ethanol in
gasoline is costing consumers $120 for every barrel of oil it
replaces; with crude selling for under $70 per barrel the only people
smiling about this are the corn growers, the ethanol producers, the
politicians they've bought and people dumb enough to believe just
about anything. I live in Iowa and I'm seeing close-up the ignorant
boosterism that's behind this economically unsustainable scheme.

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:53:23 -0700, Lou wrote:


Has anyone figured this out yet? Even if 1 half of all americans
change over
to e-85 ethanal fuel, there isn't enough farm land to produce the corn
that
will be needed. We will once again be looking to an imported fuel
base.


It's been publicized but apparently our congress critters missed that.
Even with higher yields of corn and in production we don't have enough
total farm land available to grow enough corn to produce enough
alcohol to support a major switch to alcohol as a fuel. That's the
main reason they talk about switch grass and bio generation of
alcohol. However the Canadian's have it right using hemp which is
easy to grow and gives a much higher yield of Alcohol while consuming
much less energy to grow and process. Again, our government has a
hangup with the word hemp, associating all hemp with the recreational
stuff.
BTW, we already have a 50 cent per gallon tariff on imported ethanol
while we are subsidizing the growing of corn and alcohol processing
plants.


Lou


http://www.gulfethanolcorp.com/gulf_..._investors.htm


Less than two years ago the price of standard crude oil was less than
$25 per barrel. By April 21 of 2006, it reached a record of $75.35 per
barrel. And given the mounting tensions in Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela,
multiplied by the ever increasing world demand, there’s no indication
that this strain will be eased any time in the near future.

Strap on your seatbelt... an alternative energy is about to take the
world by storm.

“Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
our cars and protect the earth.” - Dateline NBC

"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.


Take a look at recent investments made by some of the richest and most
successful people in the world:

* Bill Gates, the richest man in America, allocated $84 million
into Pacific Ethanol, Inc.
* Sir Richard Branson, chairman of the Virgin Group and worth an
estimated $3 billion, has plans to invest $300 to $400 million to
produce and market this promising alternative fuel. He says, “This is
the win-win fuel of the future.”
* Vinod Khosla, “guru” of Silicon Valley, co-founder of Sun
Microsystems, and one of ethanol’s most vocal advocates, has invested
millions of his own dollars in private companies involved in the
development of ethanol.

* What’s more, industry titans are recognizing the value of
providing the American public with an alternative. Wal-Mart announced
that it is considering offering corn-based ethanol at its 383 gas
stations throughout the U.S.
* Not to be left behind, several Big Oil companies, including Shell
and Exxon Mobil, are funding ethanol research.

A booming industry, to be sure! It will only get bigger from here…

Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments

* FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured
up by some pro-U.S. idealists. Not at all. Brazil has turned that vision
into reality, where 70% of the vehicles in that country are sustained on
ethanol. Brazil's ethanol plan has successfully replaced imported oil
worth an estimated $120 billion. To put it into perspective, this would
translate to a savings of about $2 trillion for an economy equivalent in
size to the U.S.
* INCREASED INCOME TO U.S. FARMERS: In terms of economics, there is
no clearer choice for the American public. It would mean higher farm
incomes and we would see a steep increase in rural employment.
* THE TECHNOLOGY’S IN PLACE NOW: The technology to run cars on
ethanol already exists. General Motors alone has built more than 1.5
million ethanol-compliant vehicles.
* IT’S RIDING THE “GREEN WAVE”: And let’s not ignore the fact that
ethanol is believed to be much more environmentally friendly than our
current petroleum. Many experts agree that a switch from gasoline to
ethanol could significantly reduce our carbon dioxide emissions, some
say by as much as 80%. Ethanol’s appeal extends throughout interest
groups. The U.S. government, American car manufacturers,
environmentalists and the agriculture industry are all strong supporters
of this alternative fuel.

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message nk.net...

Less than two years ago the price of standard crude oil was less than $25 per barrel. By April 21 of 2006, it reached
a record of $75.35 per barrel. And given the mounting tensions in Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela, multiplied by the ever
increasing world demand, there’s no indication that this strain will be eased any time in the near future.

Strap on your seatbelt... an alternative energy is about to take the world by storm.



I have no problems with ethanol, I just have a problem with 'the industry's trying to pawn off ethanol laced gasoline as
'gasoline'...

On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:56:46 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:


snip

“Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
our cars and protect the earth.” - Dateline NBC

"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.

That it does.

snip

Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments

* FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured

it's doubtful we could make enough alcohol from corn to make more than
a small dent.However using all sources we probably could and becoming
independent of foreign oil is very important. It's also going to be
expensive.

up by some pro-U.S. idealists. Not at all. Brazil has turned that vision
into reality, where 70% of the vehicles in that country are sustained on

They are missing something very important here. Not all alcohol is
created equal, or rather at the same cost. The Key is Brazil does not
make alcohol from corn. They make it from sugar cane with has a much
higher yield than corn and costs far less to produce. Even with the
most optimistic approach providing alcohol from corn in the best
possible light at the lowest possible price, Brazilian alcohol would
still cost only a fraction of what it would cost us to produce corn
alcohol.

ethanol. Brazil's ethanol plan has successfully replaced imported oil
worth an estimated $120 billion. To put it into perspective, this would
translate to a savings of about $2 trillion for an economy equivalent in
size to the U.S.

How would it save anything for the consumer? The only thing it would
affect is the balance of payments or trade deficit IOW. Made from corn
the alcohol and gas containing it will cost more than straight gas
made from crude. Rephrased, moving to E85 or straight alcohol is going
to cost more, not less.Given that we are replacing something with
something else that costs more there is a problem with some one's
math.

The bottom line is the true cost of E85 and straight alcohol is more
expensive than the most expensive gas we've seen so far. Add to that
it only has 60% of the energy available of straight gas. So it costs
more and it takes more of it.

* INCREASED INCOME TO U.S. FARMERS: In terms of economics, there is
no clearer choice for the American public. It would mean higher farm

Yes it would mean higher farm income and that is something the smaller
farmers really do need.

incomes and we would see a steep increase in rural employment.

Depends on what they mean by rural employment. It certainly would not
translate to much of an increase in the number of farm workers. It
would mean more workers in the alcohol industry and fewer in the
petroleum industry. I don't see any where it would bring a steep
increase in "rural" employment. Switching land from another crop to
corn isn't going to require more labor either.

* THE TECHNOLOGY’S IN PLACE NOW: The technology to run cars on
ethanol already exists. General Motors alone has built more than 1.5
million ethanol-compliant vehicles.
The technology to produce the alcohol is in place, but the ability to
do so is not, at least as far as alcohol produced by corn in
quantities large enough to make much of a difference. Alcohol from
corn will have to be supplemented by alcohol from other sources which
will probably be capable of producing more alcohol at less cost than
that from corn, or at least eventually will be capable of doing so.
That means the use of corn for alcohol would not be nearly so
attractive unless artificially supported.

According to a recent AP story most of those "flex fuel" vehicles are
not designed to run long term on E85 or straight alcohol.

* IT’S RIDING THE “GREEN WAVE”: And let’s not ignore the fact that
ethanol is believed to be much more environmentally friendly than our

That is true.

current petroleum. Many experts agree that a switch from gasoline to
ethanol could significantly reduce our carbon dioxide emissions, some
say by as much as 80%. Ethanol’s appeal extends throughout interest

It wouldn't really reduce the emissions from the cars, but what it
would do is be releasing CO2 than had been taken from the atmosphere
during the growing of the crop so it would not be adding *any* new
CO2. They are confusing emissions with "additional CO2 to the
atmosphere" and that is much more than just semantics.

Ethanol is (as far as we currently know) more environmentally friendly
to burn than gas. There are some outstanding questions, but in general
it is thought to be far better for the environment than gas.

groups. The U.S. government, American car manufacturers,
environmentalists and the agriculture industry are all strong supporters
of this alternative fuel.

Roger, an unsolved issue with alcohol is that smog is produced... I
have not done the reading to see what the solution to that is likely
some form of catalytic convertor so I'm not going to claim it is a
deal breaker, but it is significant...

For the ethanol lovers, I am not against ethanol just against muddy
thinking...
TO get ethanol for vehicles you:
*haul seed and supplies
*plow
*spray pesticides and herbicides
*fertilize
*plant
grow awhile
*knife in nitrogen
grow a bit more
*herbicides / pesticides again
grow awhile more
*harvest
*haul
ferment
*distill
*haul it again
mix with gasoline, or whatever hybrid fuel you make
*haul it again
and finally pump it onto your vehicle

Every step that has an asterisk uses fuel or chemicals or fertilizer
dependent upon petroleum...
The fuel of your grandchildren will be a hydrocarbon product made from
coal, not corn...

denny

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:28:15 -0700, Denny wrote:

Roger, an unsolved issue with alcohol is that smog is produced... I
have not done the reading to see what the solution to that is likely
some form of catalytic convertor so I'm not going to claim it is a
deal breaker, but it is significant...


My understanding is it is a great Ozone producer. I'm not sure how
that works our chemically...chem 111 and 112 were a long way back.

So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.

For the ethanol lovers, I am not against ethanol just against muddy
thinking...
TO get ethanol for vehicles you:
*haul seed and supplies
*plow

Don't forget, disk, pack, and drag

*spray pesticides and herbicides
*fertilize
*plant
grow awhile
*knife in nitrogen

Don't forget cultivating.

grow a bit more
*herbicides / pesticides again
grow awhile more

Corn takes a lot out of the land. or rephrased, it's depletes the soil
and its success depends on a very narrow range of growing conditions.

*harvest
*haul
ferment

Several handling/separation/pumping steps

*distill
*haul it again
mix with gasoline, or whatever hybrid fuel you make
*haul it again
and finally pump it onto your vehicle

Every step that has an asterisk uses fuel or chemicals or fertilizer
dependent upon petroleum...
The fuel of your grandchildren will be a hydrocarbon product made from
coal, not corn...

For the optimistic, the current "net energy gain" for corn alcohol
_in-a-*good*_growing_year is about 33%. that means for the equivalent
of every two gallons invested we get 2.66 gallons out. Or IOW we
gained a whole 2/3 of a gallon. So we have a 33% gain, but that
doesn't take into account labor. When labor is added in the true price
of that corn alcohol is astronomical whether we pay for it directly at
the pump, or through subsidies to the grower and processor.


denny

Roger,
Most of the corn grown today is no-til. Some areas still plow due to soil
type or continuous corn crops, maybe you live in one of those areas. Under
no-til, it's fertilize, spray, plant, maybe apply more nitrogen, and
harvest. Plowing is very expensive and most farmers avoid it. No-til usually
does better anyway. The main fertilizer corn uses is nitrogen and most of
that production has shifted to areas where they have natural gas as a
by-product of oil production, but no pipe line or LNG to ship it. Otherwise
it would have been burned off or in some cases pumped back in the oil well
to help maintain pressure. I'm not sure all of that should be counted in the
energy equation. As for the labor part, I don't understand your point. The
farmer will still be around if he stops producing corn. He could idle his
equipment and land, get a desk job saving energy and other energy inputs,
but he is still going to use energy to live. I also don't think the farmer's
personal energy consumption should be counted in the conversion. One other
big energy input you did miss is irrigation, but very little corn is grown
under irrigation.


wrote in message
news
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 04:28:15 -0700, Denny wrote:

Roger, an unsolved issue with alcohol is that smog is produced... I
have not done the reading to see what the solution to that is likely
some form of catalytic convertor so I'm not going to claim it is a
deal breaker, but it is significant...


My understanding is it is a great Ozone producer. I'm not sure how
that works our chemically...chem 111 and 112 were a long way back.

So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.

For the ethanol lovers, I am not against ethanol just against muddy
thinking...
TO get ethanol for vehicles you:
*haul seed and supplies
*plow

Don't forget, disk, pack, and drag

*spray pesticides and herbicides
*fertilize
*plant
grow awhile
*knife in nitrogen

Don't forget cultivating.

grow a bit more
*herbicides / pesticides again
grow awhile more

Corn takes a lot out of the land. or rephrased, it's depletes the soil
and its success depends on a very narrow range of growing conditions.

*harvest
*haul
ferment

Several handling/separation/pumping steps

*distill
*haul it again
mix with gasoline, or whatever hybrid fuel you make
*haul it again
and finally pump it onto your vehicle

Every step that has an asterisk uses fuel or chemicals or fertilizer
dependent upon petroleum...
The fuel of your grandchildren will be a hydrocarbon product made from
coal, not corn...

For the optimistic, the current "net energy gain" for corn alcohol
_in-a-*good*_growing_year is about 33%. that means for the equivalent
of every two gallons invested we get 2.66 gallons out. Or IOW we
gained a whole 2/3 of a gallon. So we have a 33% gain, but that
doesn't take into account labor. When labor is added in the true price
of that corn alcohol is astronomical whether we pay for it directly at
the pump, or through subsidies to the grower and processor.


denny

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

So as with the new energy efficient light bulbs which contain mercury
we are exchanging one pollution problem for another.

Unfortunately burning fossil fuels (especially coal) releases mercury
into the atmosphere. So you're just changing the source and location of
the mercury.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:56:46 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:


snip

"Just as the events of 9-11 changed how we guard our cities and protect
ourselves, a new generation of ethanol may soon change the way we gas up
our cars and protect the earth." - Dateline NBC

"Our plan to expand into ethanol production has the potential to
generate significant profits and increased shareholder values," JT
Cloud, CEO of Gulf Ethanol.

That it does.

snip

Factors Driving Alternative Energy Investments

* FREEDOM FROM FOREIGN OIL: Ethanol could free America from its
reluctant dependence on foreign oil. This is not a pipedream, conjured

it's doubtful we could make enough alcohol from corn to make more than
a small dent.However using all sources we probably could and becoming
independent of foreign oil is very important. It's also going to be
expensive.



Here is a reply I received back from our Senator here in Michigan:

"Thank you . . .

. . for contacting me about your opposition to the use of ethanol as fuel. I appreciate hearing your views.


I understand your concern that the increased use of corn fuel could contribute to higher corn prices. Corn ethanol is a
first step as we transition into cellulosic ethanol technology, which does not use corn, only agricultural waste
products, and converts them into fuel.

Ethanol is an important piece of the energy puzzle to improve national security; however I recognize that it will not
single-handedly replace gasoline. Congress will tackle these energy questions when it works on the new farm bill this
year, as well as other energy legislation. I will keep your views in mind when the Senate takes up legislation related
to alternative fuels.

Again, thank you for contacting me. Please do not hesitate to do so again if I can be of assistance to you or your
family.

Sincerely,

Debbie Stabenow

United States Senator

DS: il "