Lazy Eight's

On 2007-06-24 19:35:43 -0700, Dudley Henriques said:
What I do with acro students having trouble with Lazy 8's is to have
them concentrate on doing a good wingover first. This way, they can
concentrate on the 90 degree reference point, the 45 degree point and
the 135 degree point on one side only at a time.
When you can consistantly perform good wingovers to one side, then the
other, you should then put them together and do Lazy 8's.
Basically, you are dealing with pitch and bank and what you have to do
with varying control pressures with BOTH these parameters to achieve
the desired result.

Dudley, I am not sure I understand this as a teaching technique for a
Lazy Eight. You get examiners who complain that people doing Lazy
Eights are actually doing Wingovers instead of Lazy Eights. You see
comments like this, for example, in Ken Medley's article on the AOPA
web site:

"Examiners complain that many applicants actually do wingovers when
they think they are doing lazy eights. A wingover is a good, easy
aerobatic maneuver, but it isn't a lazy eight.
In lazy eights you fly the airplane throughout. In wingovers, you slip
the airplane during the turnaround. For lazy eights, fly the airplane
throughout the turns - no slipping - and be sure to allow for torque."
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:
In wingovers, you slip
the airplane during the turnaround. For lazy eights, fly the airplane
throughout the turns - no slipping - and be sure to allow for torque."

You are saying that a wingover is not coordinated, but it is.

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-06-24 19:35:43 -0700, Dudley Henriques said:
What I do with acro students having trouble with Lazy 8's is to have
them concentrate on doing a good wingover first. This way, they can
concentrate on the 90 degree reference point, the 45 degree point and
the 135 degree point on one side only at a time.
When you can consistantly perform good wingovers to one side, then the
other, you should then put them together and do Lazy 8's.
Basically, you are dealing with pitch and bank and what you have to do
with varying control pressures with BOTH these parameters to achieve
the desired result.

Dudley, I am not sure I understand this as a teaching technique for a
Lazy Eight. You get examiners who complain that people doing Lazy Eights
are actually doing Wingovers instead of Lazy Eights. You see comments
like this, for example, in Ken Medley's article on the AOPA web site:

"Examiners complain that many applicants actually do wingovers when they
think they are doing lazy eights. A wingover is a good, easy aerobatic
maneuver, but it isn't a lazy eight.
In lazy eights you fly the airplane throughout. In wingovers, you slip
the airplane during the turnaround. For lazy eights, fly the airplane
throughout the turns - no slipping - and be sure to allow for torque."

Although you can indeed slip through a wing over, if you're slipping
through a wing over, you are too slow through the apex.

When I say wing over as relates to a lazy 8, I'm simply referring to the
first half of a Lazy 8, not a maximum performance, high angle bank
through the top usually associated with a "wing over".

The Thunderbirds use the same derivative maneuver and call it a
"Wifferdill". To them, it gets them turned around with minimum energy loss.
The main objective in splitting a Lazy 8 into 2 parts is to get the
student used to flying the airplane through the apex coordinated with
the right bank and pitch inputs, which have to be constantly changed
pressure wise through the entire maneuver. Once the student can do a 1/2
Lazy 8 to pre-stated parameters, then you introduce the second half and
the transition issues the second half involves.
This is simply 1/2 of a Lazy 8 referred to as a wing over. The reason I
refer to it as a wingover is that when I teach Lazy 8's, I teach them to
varying pitch and bank parameters rather than only to the FAA standard
parameters. A Lazy 8 can be performed to various pitch and bank
combinations and I like my students to be able to do them this way as
preparation for aerobatics. The result of this type of approach to a
Lazy 8 should produce a student who can give you a decent Lazy 8 to any
combination of pitch and bank requested, thus demonstrating a much
improved understanding of what is required in control pressures in
combinmation that simply teaching the maneuver to a single FAA standard.
Contrary to "popular belief", you can easily fly through a wing over
without slipping through the top. You simply need better airspeed
control throughout the maneuver.
As was my policy throughout my tenure as a flight instructor; I geared
ALL my teaching toward preparing my students to fly using the FAA test
standard as a STARTING POINT, not as a single level of competence to be
attained and demonstrated for the purpose of passing a flight test.
Doing a Lazy 8 to the FAA stated standard should be, and indeed CAN be,
simply another maneuver done as requested by an examiner, when in
actuality, the student could if asked, perform the same Lazy 8 to a
higher or lessor degree of bank with the same coordinated results.

Dudley Henriques