Israeli Air Force to lose Middle East Air Superiority Capability to the Saudis in the near future

Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message -
(Jack White) writes:


[snip]

I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios
Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for
Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything.

0-5 (that is, 5-0 to IAF), on July 30 1970, the only event of IAF
engaging Soviet pilots (at least the only declassifyed event).



************************************************** **************************
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* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*

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NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name.
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\_|

The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and would use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in the Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say. There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab
side to this day. There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things. Bottom
line in both those wars the Arabs lost their Airforce Capabilty to fight
while IAF turned to ground support missions only at the end. And on the
ground things got worse. The Syrians in one Air Strike which every IAF
Plane returned safely home totally unchallanged accept for manually aimed
anti-aircraft-fire from Cira WWII heavy calaber machine guns on turrets,
destroyed the Syrian Equivolent of the War Room/Pentagon with every military
man worth a damn in planing a stratidgy. Where they got into the airspace
over the city was where they had taken out the two SAM Batteries. The
Soviets built the air defense to have overlapping kill zones. I.e., there
are 5 batteries A B C D E . A overlaps the kill zone of B, B
of A and C, C of B and D and D of C and E, E of D.

Take out B and C and you have a larger gap in between the kill zones.
Mission to take out the threat is succesfull as the only important targets
that they protect (anything inside Damascus) is worth risking anything to
take out. The ones further south could be flown around, the mobile units are
too hard to find and hit so left alone usually till they set up and become a
target. But they can usually only fire one and then have to be reloaded
(about an hour long proceedure). Israel tended to ignore them and go for
strategic targets and only took on the SAMS in that war when they were in
the way of that. Israel today makes a air-to-surface missile, once a radar
source is turned on, not even "painting" them it can be fired from about 20
miles out and it will even if they shut down all power hit the mark it is
totally locked in and it flies at low to the ground altitudes to boot. It
makes the US HARM systems old fasioned in that they need to have it paint an
aircraft to lock on. Missiles with HARM systems have been known to take out
the battery after the plane is shot down already. Once a plane is
"painted" the SAM can be fired at will. It takes no countdown no delay is
needed it takes off if they turn off all safeties and push the button. They
arm in flight in about 10 seconds after launch though that safety can be
disabled and they could launch a fully armed SAM ready to explode, the
danger of that is an accidental explosion could then take out the SAM
Launcher and even the command trailer or bunker.

You are totally streching, the Soviets were thought to have flown not during
the Yom Kippur War but for Egypt in the six day war, that according to the
Liberty croud here, that their mission was to listen for proof of Soviet
Envolvement. It is known that Israeli MTBs did face down a Soviet Capital
Ship (Destroyer) when they were fighting to open up the straights. The
Israeli Gun Boats fired accross the Bow of the Soviet ship which did come to
a full stop, signal it would leave the war zone, turned around and left.
Yes it would outclass the smaller but faster and more manuverable MTBs. But
one hit from a Torpedo and their vessal would at best limp home at worst be
sent to the bottom with all hands. A destroyer is not built to take a
torpedo hit and survive. It would just take one good shot and they would go
down fast. A destroyer hit, goes down within a few minutes at best. US
sub-comamanders learned that trick to use against the Japanese Destroyers
when they were held down to long. They would set up a bow shot on one of
the passes and fire all their tubes. It only took one to hit and the spread
insured it would happen. Usually by the time they could then blow thier
ballest and surface the Destroyer was settling on the bottom. Soviets
designed subs for anti sub use. Destroyers were mostly in the even of an
attack on a task group of ships expendable ment to take the hit and sink.
Only two navys in existance care about their sailors surviving. That is the
USA and the British. The Isreali navy accepts that it does not have a large
enough presensce at sea, MTBs know in any real fight they will be considered
expendable if needbe.



--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

In message - "Matt A.00 01 is Matthew
Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and would use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in the Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say. There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab
side to this day. There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things. Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified and
appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the limit" had been
printed in 1990 and it includes this battle description, so the
declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5 downed MiG-21s 3 were
downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The pilots of Mirages we
Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the pilots of F-4Es we
Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots and ask them :-)
or do some "googling". You'll also probably get it at
"http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history". Unfortunately I can't
access it at home - the site designers so heavily "optimized for MS IE" that
my Netscape can't show it correctly.


************************************************** ****************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: *
************************************************** ****************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap.
___
.__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep
end and would use SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and
fire the misiles in the Silos at the Russians as he warned them he
would if they did what you say. There is no declasified information
on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab side to this day.
There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no IAF pilot,
no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things.
Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified and
appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the limit" had
been printed in 1990 and it includes this battle description, so the
declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5 downed MiG-21s 3 were
downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The pilots of Mirages we
Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the pilots of F-4Es we
Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots and ask them :-)
or do some "googling". You'll also probably get it at
"http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history". Unfortunately I
can't access it at home - the site designers so heavily "optimized
for MS IE" that my Netscape can't show it correctly.



************************************************** **************************
**
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*

************************************************** **************************
**
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name.
Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

Where did it say the downed Mig Pilots were Soviets. That was the issue
that you posed and not what planes were involved. Is that why you simply
snipped out your previous words and said you knew what you posted. Should I
put back those quotes I retain the posts I download for the highest number
of days one can enter in that option on OE, I think that is 9,999 days. My
sent copies of all posts is automaticaly kept and I could find it there as
well till I decide it is too old to bother keeping usually about 2 years for
most posts and 3 for business emails sent out from here. I Also if I deem
it important enough flag the sent message and my cleanup is done by a 2
rules in OE.

Rule Sent CLean 1: In SENT folder if Message is flagged Stop executing
message rules.

Rule Sent CLean 2: In SENT folder if message older than 742 days Delete
Message stop executing rules.

Real easy to keep long enough and self clean every time I run OE. So I
unlike you do know what I responded to and you seem to forgotten.

As to 1990 My MS is is Comp Sci, but I hold an associates in Visual arts (NY
School of Vissual Arts) and a BA in History. Every professor would have
called 1990 still recently. The book was written and published (I do have a
copy of it) in 1990, the source is documented and if you check the
documentation out, the second step of researching a topic. That is one
reads it in a footnoted or endnoted source and then goes to the source that
the author used. You would find it was infact declasified only the prior
year 1989. A source is in Historical Terms considered new or recent till it
has had 20 years of reviewing for any mistakes by other historians. Now
that would take that off the "recently" list in 2009 not before as I was
taught.

There are books out on the Battle of Britain written 10 years after the war
using documents that were declasified rigfht after the War. Later many
mistakes as to pertant facts still came out that proved the conculusions of
those Historians wrong. I.E. the exact fighter capacity of the RAF at the
time of the Munich Conference. The first set of documents indicated 20
times the number of fighters then were really there and usefull. That
document came out just after the end of the war. 15 years later a military
historian after talking with mechanics at various air fields at that time,
found a flaw in how the numbers were generated. The document counted old WW
I Biplanes and unarmed trainers as if they were viable fighters. Planes
being scrapped at that time were also counted by the orders of the Air
Marshal of the time. He believed their were Nazi Agents that had access to
the documents and wanted them to think Britain was a lot better armed and
ready than it was.

That is why any good historian will 'think of anything available for less
than 20 years as recent. Real good researching Historians usually leave
anything of the last 20 years as "current events" as it is too knew to
uncover the historical parts of it other then at the most trivial levels.' -
Dr. Buchsbaumb U. Of Prague and Pace University after 1969.


I used to have some of his books and attended 3 of his classes. He escaped
from Hiltler and worked in British Intellegence during WWII and returned to
his home in 1945 taught at Prague and during that famous spring of freedom
published 2 books he had hidden from the Communists then as they fell to the
Warsaw Pack was away on a lecture in London. He and his wife stayed out of
that country and came to the USA. Apon my return and finishing Physical
Rehab for the wounds in action in '67 I attended that school (Pace U) at
their Pleasantville Campus (Westchester County NY) where he was teaching.
He was one of my proffessors and my advisor. He gave "F" on papers that had
too many sources under 20 years old. No topic that came into being during
that 20 year window was ever accepted.

I will abide by his definition of recent not yours, thank you.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep
end and would use SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and
fire the misiles in the Silos at the Russians as he warned them he
would if they did what you say. There is no declasified information
on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab side to this day.
There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no IAF pilot,
no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things.
Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified and
appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the limit" had
been printed in 1990 and it includes this battle description, so the
declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5 downed MiG-21s 3 were
downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The pilots of Mirages we
Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the pilots of F-4Es we
Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots and ask them :-)
or do some "googling". You'll also probably get it at
"http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history". Unfortunately I
can't access it at home - the site designers so heavily "optimized
for MS IE" that my Netscape can't show it correctly.



************************************************** **************************
**
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*

************************************************** **************************
**
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name.
Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

Where did it say the downed Mig Pilots were Soviets.


I found it for you.

This is what was written in the old IAF site:


http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dl...3.3.6.3.3.html

One of the best known dogfights of the Israeli-Egyptian War of
Attrition was the encounter with MiG-21's flown by Soviet pilots. On
the afternoon hours of June 30th 1970, Israeli Phantoms attacked an
Egyptian radar installation at Suhuna, near the Gulf of Suez, with
other Phantoms and Mirages providing air cover. Soon enough, 6
quartets of Egyptian MiG-21's, flown by Soviet pilots, were scrambled
against the Israelis. In a matter of seconds, the scene was that of a
massive air brawl, which resulted in 5 MiG's being shot down - 3 by
Mirages and 2 by Phantoms

-

Last week the IAF launched a new site and at least for now there isn't
an English section in it.

Here you can find confirmation for the downed soveit pilots story (in
Hebrew):

http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...ntPageNumber=2

http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...ntPageNumber=2



That was the issue
that you posed and not what planes were involved. Is that why you simply
snipped out your previous words and said you knew what you posted. Should I
put back those quotes I retain the posts I download for the highest number
of days one can enter in that option on OE, I think that is 9,999 days. My
sent copies of all posts is automaticaly kept and I could find it there as
well till I decide it is too old to bother keeping usually about 2 years for
most posts and 3 for business emails sent out from here. I Also if I deem
it important enough flag the sent message and my cleanup is done by a 2
rules in OE.

Rule Sent CLean 1: In SENT folder if Message is flagged Stop executing
message rules.

Rule Sent CLean 2: In SENT folder if message older than 742 days Delete
Message stop executing rules.

Real easy to keep long enough and self clean every time I run OE. So I
unlike you do know what I responded to and you seem to forgotten.

As to 1990 My MS is is Comp Sci, but I hold an associates in Visual arts (NY
School of Vissual Arts) and a BA in History. Every professor would have
called 1990 still recently. The book was written and published (I do have a
copy of it) in 1990, the source is documented and if you check the
documentation out, the second step of researching a topic. That is one
reads it in a footnoted or endnoted source and then goes to the source that
the author used. You would find it was infact declasified only the prior
year 1989. A source is in Historical Terms considered new or recent till it
has had 20 years of reviewing for any mistakes by other historians. Now
that would take that off the "recently" list in 2009 not before as I was
taught.

There are books out on the Battle of Britain written 10 years after the war
using documents that were declasified rigfht after the War. Later many
mistakes as to pertant facts still came out that proved the conculusions of
those Historians wrong. I.E. the exact fighter capacity of the RAF at the
time of the Munich Conference. The first set of documents indicated 20
times the number of fighters then were really there and usefull. That
document came out just after the end of the war. 15 years later a military
historian after talking with mechanics at various air fields at that time,
found a flaw in how the numbers were generated. The document counted old WW
I Biplanes and unarmed trainers as if they were viable fighters. Planes
being scrapped at that time were also counted by the orders of the Air
Marshal of the time. He believed their were Nazi Agents that had access to
the documents and wanted them to think Britain was a lot better armed and
ready than it was.

That is why any good historian will 'think of anything available for less
than 20 years as recent. Real good researching Historians usually leave
anything of the last 20 years as "current events" as it is too knew to
uncover the historical parts of it other then at the most trivial levels.' -
Dr. Buchsbaumb U. Of Prague and Pace University after 1969.


I used to have some of his books and attended 3 of his classes. He escaped
from Hiltler and worked in British Intellegence during WWII and returned to
his home in 1945 taught at Prague and during that famous spring of freedom
published 2 books he had hidden from the Communists then as they fell to the
Warsaw Pack was away on a lecture in London. He and his wife stayed out of
that country and came to the USA. Apon my return and finishing Physical
Rehab for the wounds in action in '67 I attended that school (Pace U) at
their Pleasantville Campus (Westchester County NY) where he was teaching.
He was one of my proffessors and my advisor. He gave "F" on papers that had
too many sources under 20 years old. No topic that came into being during
that 20 year window was ever accepted.

I will abide by his definition of recent not yours, thank you.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

Quant wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep
end and would use SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and
fire the misiles in the Silos at the Russians as he warned them he
would if they did what you say. There is no declasified
information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab side to
this day. There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward
about such to this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting
unprovable things. Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified
and appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the
limit" had been printed in 1990 and it includes this battle
description, so the declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5
downed MiG-21s 3 were downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The
pilots of Mirages we Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the
pilots of F-4Es we Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots
and ask them :-) or do some "googling". You'll also probably get
it at "http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history".
Unfortunately I can't access it at home - the site designers so
heavily "optimized for MS IE" that my Netscape can't show it
correctly.




************************************************** **************************
**
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*


************************************************** **************************
**
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my
domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|

Where did it say the downed Mig Pilots were Soviets.


I found it for you.

This is what was written in the old IAF site:


http://www.iaf.org.il/iaf/doa_iis.dl...3.3.6.3.3.html

One of the best known dogfights of the Israeli-Egyptian War of
Attrition was the encounter with MiG-21's flown by Soviet pilots. On
the afternoon hours of June 30th 1970, Israeli Phantoms attacked an
Egyptian radar installation at Suhuna, near the Gulf of Suez, with
other Phantoms and Mirages providing air cover. Soon enough, 6
quartets of Egyptian MiG-21's, flown by Soviet pilots, were scrambled
against the Israelis. In a matter of seconds, the scene was that of a
massive air brawl, which resulted in 5 MiG's being shot down - 3 by
Mirages and 2 by Phantoms

-

Last week the IAF launched a new site and at least for now there isn't
an English section in it.

Here you can find confirmation for the downed soveit pilots story (in
Hebrew):



http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...=HE&lobbyID=69
&folderID=78&docfolderID=184&docID=18175&currentPa geNumber=2



http://www.iaf.org.il/Templates/Airc...=HE&lobbyID=69
&folderID=78&docfolderID=184&docID=18173&currentPa geNumber=2



That was the issue
that you posed and not what planes were involved. Is that why you
simply snipped out your previous words and said you knew what you
posted. Should I put back those quotes I retain the posts I download
for the highest number of days one can enter in that option on OE, I
think that is 9,999 days. My sent copies of all posts is
automaticaly kept and I could find it there as well till I decide it
is too old to bother keeping usually about 2 years for most posts
and 3 for business emails sent out from here. I Also if I deem it
important enough flag the sent message and my cleanup is done by a 2
rules in OE.

Rule Sent CLean 1: In SENT folder if Message is flagged Stop
executing message rules.

Rule Sent CLean 2: In SENT folder if message older than 742 days
Delete Message stop executing rules.

Real easy to keep long enough and self clean every time I run OE.
So I unlike you do know what I responded to and you seem to
forgotten.

As to 1990 My MS is is Comp Sci, but I hold an associates in Visual
arts (NY School of Vissual Arts) and a BA in History. Every
professor would have called 1990 still recently. The book was
written and published (I do have a copy of it) in 1990, the source
is documented and if you check the documentation out, the second
step of researching a topic. That is one reads it in a footnoted or
endnoted source and then goes to the source that the author used.
You would find it was infact declasified only the prior year 1989.
A source is in Historical Terms considered new or recent till it has
had 20 years of reviewing for any mistakes by other historians. Now
that would take that off the "recently" list in 2009 not before as I
was taught.

There are books out on the Battle of Britain written 10 years after
the war using documents that were declasified rigfht after the War.
Later many mistakes as to pertant facts still came out that proved
the conculusions of those Historians wrong. I.E. the exact fighter
capacity of the RAF at the time of the Munich Conference. The first
set of documents indicated 20 times the number of fighters then were
really there and usefull. That document came out just after the
end of the war. 15 years later a military historian after talking
with mechanics at various air fields at that time, found a flaw in
how the numbers were generated. The document counted old WW I
Biplanes and unarmed trainers as if they were viable fighters.
Planes being scrapped at that time were also counted by the orders
of the Air Marshal of the time. He believed their were Nazi Agents
that had access to the documents and wanted them to think Britain
was a lot better armed and ready than it was.

That is why any good historian will 'think of anything available for
less than 20 years as recent. Real good researching Historians
usually leave anything of the last 20 years as "current events" as
it is too knew to uncover the historical parts of it other then at
the most trivial levels.' - Dr. Buchsbaumb U. Of Prague and Pace
University after 1969.


I used to have some of his books and attended 3 of his classes. He
escaped from Hiltler and worked in British Intellegence during WWII
and returned to his home in 1945 taught at Prague and during that
famous spring of freedom published 2 books he had hidden from the
Communists then as they fell to the Warsaw Pack was away on a
lecture in London. He and his wife stayed out of that country and
came to the USA. Apon my return and finishing Physical Rehab for
the wounds in action in '67 I attended that school (Pace U) at their
Pleasantville Campus (Westchester County NY) where he was teaching.
He was one of my proffessors and my advisor. He gave "F" on papers
that had too many sources under 20 years old. No topic that came
into being during that 20 year window was ever accepted.

I will abide by his definition of recent not yours, thank you.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down
ads to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

So then by your own statement the IAF was supperior to the Soviets?

I may say I stand corrected on one thing though, I assumed that the
discussion was about the war time '67 and the War on Yom Kippur. If these
IAF pilots shot down Soviet Piloted Migs they were better pilots as the
Israelis fight most of their air to air battles with cannon fire not air to
air heat seeking rockets. That requires geting in close and out flying the
enemy planes and the pilots. Israel due to this found ways to reload the
Gpods of their planes much faster than any other nation had. The US sent
their ground crew instructors to study how Iseal in Yom Kippur war put US
planes refuled and reloaded back in the air in 15 minutes when the US ground
crews needed an hour. Israel during the wars often found themeselves with
more Combat ready pilots than planes. Actually it was always that way as
the planes meant buying planes and a lot of spare parts. Not every pilot
could fly 24 * 7 any way for the entire war. So while they refitted the
planes with more fuel, refilled Gpods, and other weapons used up, they often
changed pilots allowing the pilot that already flew 1 to 5 missions to get
some rest and a fresh rested pilot took his place. At the start of the '67
war it was fairly well known that for every 5 planes they had 7 pilots.
Because they always had fewer planes then the Arabs they had to have better
pilots.

Now you indicate they outclassed the Soviets who would have sent their best
in not their worst.

LOL to the argument that the IDF was not the best.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message
...
Quant wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:
snip
I may say I stand corrected on one thing though, I assumed that the
discussion was about the war time '67 and the War on Yom Kippur. If these
IAF pilots shot down Soviet Piloted Migs they were better pilots as the
Israelis fight most of their air to air battles with cannon fire not air
to
air heat seeking rockets.

Actually, the situation in that engagement was so that the Israelis have
purposedly set-up a trap: they have sent Phantoms to hit that Egyptian radar
station and act as a demonstration group, knowing that any attack in _that_
area would cause the Soviets to react - not Egyptians. The purpose was to
deliver a message to the Soviets: don't play with us. When the Soviets
reacted as expected, additional groups of Israeli Mirages and Phantoms - all
flown by hand-picked pilots, every single one of which had far more fresh
combat experience than all the Soviets together - hit them from the side.

So, the Soviets fell to their own ignorance as much as they did to missiles
fired from their fighters: they considered themselves "better" than the
Israelis because of what they were at hom ("best" Soviet pilots), not
because of their true combat experience (which was 0). Also because they
would not listen to the "stupid Arabs", which were warning them that new air
combat methods and weapons were needed in order the counter the Israelis.
The Soviets believed they did not need anything better than MiG-21s and
their nifty weaponry. Israelis, on the other side, concentrated all of their
best pilots to deliver the message: these were excellently trained in
air-to-air gunnery, and also knew the MiG-21 and the weaknesses of its
weapons system so well, they could exploit this in combat to their
advantage.

The Israelis knew, for example, that the R-13 - (AA-2 "Atoll", the main
air-to-air missile used by the MiG-21) - was completely useless in air
combat, so they could maneuver and use afterburners without the fear of
being hit, while their own missiles were functioning. They were, however,
neither "super" nor the "best": they were only better than the Soviets and
the Egyptians at the time and place. Of course, that was what counted and
what was important at the time and place.

As a matter of fact several of "best" Israeli "aces" are known for poor
section discipline: they were fighting alone, leaving their wingmen alone
and without support (which caused quite some losses in air combats in 1973,
when the Arabs got better).

That requires geting in close and out flying the
enemy planes and the pilots. Israel due to this found ways to reload the
Gpods of their planes much faster than any other nation had.

Hm, somehow I have a feeling you're missing here too. Guns were important
mainly during the Six Day War. Subsequently, an increasing number of kills
were scored by missiles.
If I recall it exactly all the Israeli kills against Soviets on 30 July 1970
were scored by missiles, just for example....

The US sent
their ground crew instructors to study how Iseal in Yom Kippur war put US
planes refuled and reloaded back in the air in 15 minutes when the US
ground
crews needed an hour.

The turn-around times were more important on the first day of the Six Day
War, in 1967, than in 1970 or 1973: on the first day of the Six Day War the
Israelis had to fly as much in order to keep the enemy under the constant
pressure. The situation changed already on the next day, when the threat
from Arab air forces was minimized. On specific days during the October War,
1973, the IDF/AF flew not more than 150-200 sorties, while having something
like 400 combat aircraft at the time. Means, obviously less than 50% of the
force was flying at all. So, I doubt there was a need for the US to send
anybody to Israel in 1973 to see these Israeli super-turbo turn-around
times...

In fact, in 1973 the Israelis had nothing like turn-around times of 15
minutes: this was neither really needed, nor advisible, and in the cases
where it was attempted the results were heavy losses. The first reason was
that the pilots could not be properly briefed for such operations as fought
in 1973: as after such fast turn-around times the pilots were sent to hit
targets they did not know where to find they got shot down while looking
around... On the first day of the Six Day War, the situation was simplier,
as they had to strike mainly Arab airfields.

Also, in 1973 the IDF/AF was flying Phantoms: a single Phantom can carry as
many bombs as four or more Mirages - and deliver them with far better
precision, over a longer range, at a higher speed. A "salvo" of 12 Mk.82s
dropped from a single F-4E in 1973 could shut down an Arab airfield for
several hours: in 1973 one needed at least four Mirages, or SMB.2s, or
Vautors to do the same job. Consequently they did not need fly as many
sorties as in 1967.

Israel during the wars often found themeselves with
more Combat ready pilots than planes. Actually it was always that way as
the planes meant buying planes and a lot of spare parts.

According to this logic of yours: buying spare parts = bad.

Hehe, I doubt anybody working in any air force could agree with this....

Not every pilot
could fly 24 * 7 any way for the entire war.

As a matter of fact, nobody can do this. Not "even" the Israelis: please,
permit them to remain human beings. Four sorties a day - and for a single
day - yes, but that's already the limit. Three a day for duration of three,
four, perhaps five days. That can function too. But more would only decrease
the capability of the pilot: it would simply drain him down.

So while they refitted the
planes with more fuel, refilled Gpods, and other weapons used up, they
often
changed pilots allowing the pilot that already flew 1 to 5 missions to get
some rest and a fresh rested pilot took his place.

Could you name a single Israeli pilot that flew five sorties in one day,
either in 1967 or 1973? I couldn't. Feel free to correct me, but I can only
remember several that flew four sorties on the first day of the Six Day War,
not a single one that flew as much in 1973.

Now you indicate they outclassed the Soviets who would have sent their
best
in not their worst.

This is nothing special: the fact that the Soviets considered their "best"
pilots "best" means not these were indeed the "best" around. They've got
shot down in air combats fought on a number of other places too... You can
bet your annual income that the same can be said for the Israelis too: some
of their "best" were shot down several times. So also the "best" Arab pilot
ever, Syrian Bassam Hamshu, who shot down nine Israelis in air combats
between 1970 and 1973 - and then got himself shot down and killed in 1982:
there is always somebody who's _better_.....

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Tom Cooper wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Quant wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:
snip
I may say I stand corrected on one thing though, I assumed that the
discussion was about the war time '67 and the War on Yom Kippur. If
these IAF pilots shot down Soviet Piloted Migs they were better
pilots as the Israelis fight most of their air to air battles with
cannon fire not air
to
air heat seeking rockets.

Actually, the situation in that engagement was so that the Israelis
have purposedly set-up a trap: they have sent Phantoms to hit that
Egyptian radar station and act as a demonstration group, knowing that
any attack in _that_ area would cause the Soviets to react - not
Egyptians. The purpose was to deliver a message to the Soviets: don't
play with us. When the Soviets reacted as expected, additional groups
of Israeli Mirages and Phantoms - all flown by hand-picked pilots,
every single one of which had far more fresh combat experience than
all the Soviets together - hit them from the side.

So, the Soviets fell to their own ignorance as much as they did to
missiles fired from their fighters: they considered themselves
"better" than the Israelis because of what they were at hom ("best"
Soviet pilots), not because of their true combat experience (which
was 0). Also because they would not listen to the "stupid Arabs",
which were warning them that new air combat methods and weapons were
needed in order the counter the Israelis. The Soviets believed they
did not need anything better than MiG-21s and their nifty weaponry.
Israelis, on the other side, concentrated all of their best pilots to
deliver the message: these were excellently trained in air-to-air
gunnery, and also knew the MiG-21 and the weaknesses of its weapons
system so well, they could exploit this in combat to their advantage.

The Israelis knew, for example, that the R-13 - (AA-2 "Atoll", the
main air-to-air missile used by the MiG-21) - was completely useless
in air combat, so they could maneuver and use afterburners without
the fear of being hit, while their own missiles were functioning.
They were, however, neither "super" nor the "best": they were only
better than the Soviets and the Egyptians at the time and place. Of
course, that was what counted and what was important at the time and
place.

As a matter of fact several of "best" Israeli "aces" are known for
poor section discipline: they were fighting alone, leaving their
wingmen alone and without support (which caused quite some losses in
air combats in 1973, when the Arabs got better).

That requires geting in close and out flying the
enemy planes and the pilots. Israel due to this found ways to
reload the Gpods of their planes much faster than any other nation
had.

Hm, somehow I have a feeling you're missing here too. Guns were
important mainly during the Six Day War. Subsequently, an increasing
number of kills were scored by missiles.
If I recall it exactly all the Israeli kills against Soviets on 30
July 1970 were scored by missiles, just for example....

The US sent
their ground crew instructors to study how Iseal in Yom Kippur war
put US planes refuled and reloaded back in the air in 15 minutes
when the US
ground
crews needed an hour.

The turn-around times were more important on the first day of the Six
Day War, in 1967, than in 1970 or 1973: on the first day of the Six
Day War the Israelis had to fly as much in order to keep the enemy
under the constant pressure. The situation changed already on the
next day, when the threat from Arab air forces was minimized. On
specific days during the October War, 1973, the IDF/AF flew not more
than 150-200 sorties, while having something like 400 combat aircraft
at the time. Means, obviously less than 50% of the force was flying
at all. So, I doubt there was a need for the US to send anybody to
Israel in 1973 to see these Israeli super-turbo turn-around times...

In fact, in 1973 the Israelis had nothing like turn-around times of 15
minutes: this was neither really needed, nor advisible, and in the
cases where it was attempted the results were heavy losses. The first
reason was that the pilots could not be properly briefed for such
operations as fought in 1973: as after such fast turn-around times
the pilots were sent to hit targets they did not know where to find
they got shot down while looking around... On the first day of the
Six Day War, the situation was simplier, as they had to strike mainly
Arab airfields.

Also, in 1973 the IDF/AF was flying Phantoms: a single Phantom can
carry as many bombs as four or more Mirages - and deliver them with
far better precision, over a longer range, at a higher speed. A
"salvo" of 12 Mk.82s dropped from a single F-4E in 1973 could shut
down an Arab airfield for several hours: in 1973 one needed at least
four Mirages, or SMB.2s, or Vautors to do the same job. Consequently
they did not need fly as many sorties as in 1967.

Israel during the wars often found themeselves with
more Combat ready pilots than planes. Actually it was always that
way as the planes meant buying planes and a lot of spare parts.

According to this logic of yours: buying spare parts = bad.

No not bad just added expense that the Israeli budget even with the US aid
could not afford. Also having more piltots then planes allowed for more
long time missions when the same pilot would not be taking that plane out
again that day but another pilot would who was rested and well briefed on
the next mission well prior to the plane landing and being refitted for that
mission. In the Six day war after the first day against Egypt, many of the
sorties were flown against the Syrian and Israeli Air Forces to stop the
danger of the air raids that the Jordanians did pull off in the early hours
of the war. Shooting down most of their best pilots supressed them to
defense only. The Syrians lost too many planes also in one day engagement.
By the third day no arab air force threatened Israel or its forces. They
were a nullified threat. In the six day war also a Russian Frieter and 2
ships of their line were attacked in Port Alexandria. They had no air cover
to speak of and were heavily enough damaged to flee the waters entirely to
Lybian Waters and harbor to perform some repairs and set off again to sea
ASAP. After those first three days the majority of IAF activities was close
ground support missions to take out bunkers, Tanks, other Armored Viechles
as well as troops. This is how the Egyptian and Syrian Ground forces kept
finding any defendable position unatenable. Israel did continue to use the
fast refiting time during that time. They were handed known fixed locations
to hit, and then any target of opurtunity as well as those strikes that the
ground troops called in.

In close ground support flying the pilot must be well rested. When he takes
off he only knows what sector on he is to patrol. He has no designated
targets to be briefed on. His targets are communicated to him from the
ground forces that need an airstrike at a set of co-ordinates. If there is
time he does a flyover at susonic speed and Id's his target(s) and then on
the next pass unloads it. Sometimes he is asked for specific ordinence and
a direction of the attack. That is common when they are against a line of
heavy firing from hidden troops. They ask for Nalpalm from one direction
from a start point. That causes a large line of incinerating fire that
cannot be put out till it all burns off. The pilot only knows that he and
the number of planes that will be in that sector. Nothing is known about
what targets he will hit, when or where in that sector. If on his return to
the field he still has ordinence and can find a target of oportunity he will
use what is left to take that out.

Briefing time is not needed for those missions, just pilots that are rested
and planes loaded with the ordinence and fuel. How long does it take for a
tired pilot to get out of his plane and his rested replacement get in. Not
two hours, not one hour, but perhaps about 15 minutes of them climbing and
talking about the plane's handling. So a 15 minute turn around is a good
and better way to go. The other 50 planes were incase another nation joined
in the fray and they needed to scramble their planes in defense.


Hehe, I doubt anybody working in any air force could agree with
this....

Not every pilot
could fly 24 * 7 any way for the entire war.

As a matter of fact, nobody can do this. Not "even" the Israelis:
please, permit them to remain human beings. Four sorties a day - and
for a single day - yes, but that's already the limit. Three a day for
duration of three, four, perhaps five days. That can function too.
But more would only decrease the capability of the pilot: it would
simply drain him down.


But make the ratio of pilots to planes heavier on the number of pilots to
planes and the IAF could give the pilots a break after short periods and
less sorties. That is how the IAF opperated in both the Six Day and Yom
Kippur Wars as well as against the Palestinians in Lebanon. Any tired pilot
could be given a break when he landed and another pilot would be available
to relieve him for some time to rest.


So while they refitted the
planes with more fuel, refilled Gpods, and other weapons used up,
they
often
changed pilots allowing the pilot that already flew 1 to 5 missions
to get some rest and a fresh rested pilot took his place.

Could you name a single Israeli pilot that flew five sorties in one
day, either in 1967 or 1973? I couldn't. Feel free to correct me, but
I can only remember several that flew four sorties on the first day
of the Six Day War, not a single one that flew as much in 1973.


Over the 1/4 of the first wave against Egypt flew 5 sortees the first day in
'67. Many of these raides went very quickly just take out the air fields
some key roadways and rail line. Also they were the ones that bombed some
Russian Ships in Port Alexandria sending them packing that day. That was
their fifth sortee. The story about this was on the History Channel as well
as in a book by one of the lead pilots, (I do not rememeber his name). The
Show on the History Channel was one of a series called "Air Power".


Now you indicate they outclassed the Soviets who would have sent
their
best
in not their worst.

This is nothing special: the fact that the Soviets considered their
"best" pilots "best" means not these were indeed the "best" around.
They've got shot down in air combats fought on a number of other
places too... You can bet your annual income that the same can be
said for the Israelis too: some of their "best" were shot down
several times. So also the "best" Arab pilot ever, Syrian Bassam
Hamshu, who shot down nine Israelis in air combats between 1970 and
1973 - and then got himself shot down and killed in 1982: there is
always somebody who's _better_.....

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585



--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message
...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message -
(Jack White) writes:
snip

The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and would
use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in the
Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say.
There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the
Arab
side to this day.

Matt, this is nonsence.

It appears to me that YOU don't know about this but prefer to make the whole
topic a matter of some conspiracy theories and similar BS.

See the article "Red Stars over Egypt", by Mikhael Zhirokhov, published in
the British mag Air Pictorial, June, July, and August 2001: it reveals
almost everything about the Soviets in Egypt through the 1960s and 1970s.
Even such Soviet "Top Guns" like Oleg Tsoy (currently senior test pilot at
Sukhoi) were there and have flown MiGs in Egyptian markings.

There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such
to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things. Bottom
line in both those wars the Arabs lost their Airforce Capabilty to fight
while IAF turned to ground support missions only at the end.

Even more nonsence.

The Egyptians trained according to the Soviet doctrine in the 1960s and that
was the reason why they were unable to fight in 1967. They (the Egyptians)
went though a very painfull process of re-learning the basics of the
air-to-air combat at low levels during the War of Attrition. During this
process they re-wrote most of the Soviet combat manuals - especially those
for MiG-17, MiG-21, and Su-7. In 1970 the Soviets still had the same
approach to the quesitons of gunnery training and air-to-air combat like
before the Six Day War. By 1972, however, even they started teaching the
Syrians accordingly (only not their own pilots).

Could you ask yourself why?

And on the
ground things got worse. The Syrians in one Air Strike which every IAF
Plane returned safely home totally unchallanged accept for manually aimed
anti-aircraft-fire from Cira WWII heavy calaber machine guns on turrets,
destroyed the Syrian Equivolent of the War Room/Pentagon with every
military
man worth a damn in planing a stratidgy.

This is laughable. Where is this from?

Do you know what exactly was hit on 10 October? Where was the Syrian "War
Room"? You don't really believe it was placed in the middle of Damascus, or?

Where they got into the airspace
over the city was where they had taken out the two SAM Batteries.

The strike against the Syrian Army HQs involved no attacks against the SAM
batteries: the only such strikes on the Golan front were flown on the
morning of 7 October. Two F-4Es were shot down by SA-6s, two by ZSU-23-4s,
and two by MiG-21s for one SA-6 site and two MiGs in exchange.

The
Soviets built the air defense to have overlapping kill zones. I.e., there
are 5 batteries A B C D E . A overlaps the kill zone of B,
B
of A and C, C of B and D and D of C and E, E of D.

Take out B and C and you have a larger gap in between the kill zones.

Not even the Syrian air defences along Golan were organized according to
this (indeed Soviet) doctrine. They were organized according to Arab
experiences - with the help of Soviet weapons.

Mission to take out the threat is succesfull as the only important targets
that they protect (anything inside Damascus) is worth risking anything to
take out. The ones further south could be flown around, the mobile units
are
too hard to find and hit so left alone usually till they set up and become
a
target. But they can usually only fire one and then have to be reloaded
(about an hour long proceedure). Israel tended to ignore them and go for
strategic targets and only took on the SAMS in that war when they were in
the way of that.

Wrong without an end. The Israelis first hit the wall with their forehead
trying to target SAM-sites about which they didn't even know where these
should have been. The result was the Operation Dogman 5 ("Plan 5" or
something similar), which ended with such a catastrophe for the unit better
known in the public as the "201st Sqn" (50% loss in a single mission). Then
they learned the lesson and started flying interdiction strikes around the
Syrian SAM-belt, and CAS in the areas on the edges of the Egyptian SAM-belt.
Nevertheless, their Skyhawks had to fly CAS over Golan and on Sinai, and
their losses (not only to the SAMs, but foremost to MiGs and ZSU-23-4s) were
staggering - until the Arabs spent most of their SAMs, so that the IDF/AF
was free to maneuver.

Israel today makes a air-to-surface missile, once a radar
source is turned on, not even "painting" them it can be fired from about
20
miles out and it will even if they shut down all power hit the mark it is
totally locked in and it flies at low to the ground altitudes to boot. It
makes the US HARM systems old fasioned in that they need to have it paint
an
aircraft to lock on. Missiles with HARM systems have been known to take
out
the battery after the plane is shot down already.

And which missile should this be, please? Not the "Purple Fist" by accident?

If yes, be informed that this is actually the US-produced AGM-78 Standard
ARM, taken out of service in US military already in the late 1980s...

The "real news" to this topic is the Israeli-built Harpy ARM-UAV, capable of
cruising at a very low speed for hours over the battlefield and then
targeting only the radars specifically programmed into its seeker head, by a
near vertical "kamikaze-style" dive on their antennas.

You are totally streching, the Soviets were thought to have flown not
during
the Yom Kippur War but for Egypt in the six day war, that according to the
Liberty croud here, that their mission was to listen for proof of Soviet
Envolvement.

You're mixing almost everything. The Six Day War was fought in 1967, and
this was the war during which the Israelis attacked USS Liberty. During this
war there were only 35 Soviet instructors in Egypt, and these took no part
in fighting against Israel at all.

The number of Soviet "advisors" was constantly increasing since the end of
the Six Day War and during the War of Attrition, fought (actually) 1967-1973
(officially between 1968 and 1970), reaching the pike in March 1970, when a
whole Soviet air defence divison was deployed to Egypt. In 1972 Sadat
expelled most of the Soviet instructors out of Egypt, so that by 1973 there
were not many of them left there to fight at all. The 154th SAF (equipped
with MiG-25Rs) was deployed to Cairo West in the final days of the war and
flew only a handfull of sorties before the armistice.

Thus, during the October/Teshreen War, fought in 1973, the Soviets flew no
air battles against the Israelis: even East Germans, Poles, Noth Koreans,
Pakistanis, all the possible Arabs - and one British - did, just no Soviets.

BTW, the Soviets also flew combat sorties for Iraqis during the war with
Iran (or is this another "big secret" in your opinion?): two were killed
while flying MiG-27s, at least two more while flying MiG-25s - all in air
combats with Iranian F-14s. One more was shot down while flying MiG-27 by
Iranian Phantoms, but he survived.

In exchange they shot down nothing.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Tom Cooper wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message -
(Jack White) writes:
snip

The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and
would
use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in
the
Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say.
There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for
the
Arab
side to this day.

Matt, this is nonsence.

It appears to me that YOU don't know about this but prefer to make
the whole topic a matter of some conspiracy theories and similar BS.

See the article "Red Stars over Egypt", by Mikhael Zhirokhov,
published in the British mag Air Pictorial, June, July, and August
2001: it reveals almost everything about the Soviets in Egypt through
the 1960s and 1970s. Even such Soviet "Top Guns" like Oleg Tsoy
(currently senior test pilot at Sukhoi) were there and have flown
MiGs in Egyptian markings.

There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about
such
to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things.
Bottom line in both those wars the Arabs lost their Airforce
Capabilty to fight while IAF turned to ground support missions only
at the end.

Even more nonsence.

The Egyptians trained according to the Soviet doctrine in the 1960s
and that was the reason why they were unable to fight in 1967. They
(the Egyptians) went though a very painfull process of re-learning
the basics of the air-to-air combat at low levels during the War of
Attrition. During this process they re-wrote most of the Soviet
combat manuals - especially those for MiG-17, MiG-21, and Su-7. In
1970 the Soviets still had the same approach to the quesitons of
gunnery training and air-to-air combat like before the Six Day War.
By 1972, however, even they started teaching the Syrians accordingly
(only not their own pilots).

Could you ask yourself why?

And on the
ground things got worse. The Syrians in one Air Strike which every
IAF Plane returned safely home totally unchallanged accept for
manually aimed anti-aircraft-fire from Cira WWII heavy calaber
machine guns on turrets, destroyed the Syrian Equivolent of the War
Room/Pentagon with every
military
man worth a damn in planing a stratidgy.

This is laughable. Where is this from?

Do you know what exactly was hit on 10 October? Where was the Syrian
"War Room"? You don't really believe it was placed in the middle of
Damascus, or?

Where they got into the airspace
over the city was where they had taken out the two SAM Batteries.

The strike against the Syrian Army HQs involved no attacks against
the SAM batteries: the only such strikes on the Golan front were
flown on the morning of 7 October. Two F-4Es were shot down by SA-6s,
two by ZSU-23-4s, and two by MiG-21s for one SA-6 site and two MiGs
in exchange.

The
Soviets built the air defense to have overlapping kill zones. I.e.,
there are 5 batteries A B C D E . A overlaps the kill
zone of B,
B
of A and C, C of B and D and D of C and E, E of D.

Take out B and C and you have a larger gap in between the kill zones.

Not even the Syrian air defences along Golan were organized according
to this (indeed Soviet) doctrine. They were organized according to
Arab experiences - with the help of Soviet weapons.

Mission to take out the threat is succesfull as the only important
targets that they protect (anything inside Damascus) is worth
risking anything to take out. The ones further south could be flown
around, the mobile units
are
too hard to find and hit so left alone usually till they set up and
become
a
target. But they can usually only fire one and then have to be
reloaded (about an hour long proceedure). Israel tended to ignore
them and go for strategic targets and only took on the SAMS in that
war when they were in the way of that.

Wrong without an end. The Israelis first hit the wall with their
forehead trying to target SAM-sites about which they didn't even know
where these should have been. The result was the Operation Dogman 5
("Plan 5" or something similar), which ended with such a catastrophe
for the unit better known in the public as the "201st Sqn" (50% loss
in a single mission). Then they learned the lesson and started flying
interdiction strikes around the Syrian SAM-belt, and CAS in the areas
on the edges of the Egyptian SAM-belt. Nevertheless, their Skyhawks
had to fly CAS over Golan and on Sinai, and their losses (not only to
the SAMs, but foremost to MiGs and ZSU-23-4s) were staggering - until
the Arabs spent most of their SAMs, so that the IDF/AF was free to
maneuver.

Israel today makes a air-to-surface missile, once a radar
source is turned on, not even "painting" them it can be fired from
about
20
miles out and it will even if they shut down all power hit the mark
it is totally locked in and it flies at low to the ground altitudes
to boot. It makes the US HARM systems old fasioned in that they
need to have it paint
an
aircraft to lock on. Missiles with HARM systems have been known to
take
out
the battery after the plane is shot down already.

And which missile should this be, please? Not the "Purple Fist" by
accident?

If yes, be informed that this is actually the US-produced AGM-78
Standard ARM, taken out of service in US military already in the late
1980s...

The "real news" to this topic is the Israeli-built Harpy ARM-UAV,
capable of cruising at a very low speed for hours over the
battlefield and then targeting only the radars specifically
programmed into its seeker head, by a near vertical "kamikaze-style"
dive on their antennas.

You are totally streching, the Soviets were thought to have flown not
during
the Yom Kippur War but for Egypt in the six day war, that according
to the Liberty croud here, that their mission was to listen for
proof of Soviet Envolvement.

You're mixing almost everything. The Six Day War was fought in 1967,
and this was the war during which the Israelis attacked USS Liberty.
During this war there were only 35 Soviet instructors in Egypt, and
these took no part in fighting against Israel at all.

The number of Soviet "advisors" was constantly increasing since the
end of the Six Day War and during the War of Attrition, fought
(actually) 1967-1973 (officially between 1968 and 1970), reaching the
pike in March 1970, when a whole Soviet air defence divison was
deployed to Egypt. In 1972 Sadat expelled most of the Soviet
instructors out of Egypt, so that by 1973 there were not many of them
left there to fight at all. The 154th SAF (equipped with MiG-25Rs)
was deployed to Cairo West in the final days of the war and flew only
a handfull of sorties before the armistice.

Thus, during the October/Teshreen War, fought in 1973, the Soviets
flew no air battles against the Israelis: even East Germans, Poles,
Noth Koreans, Pakistanis, all the possible Arabs - and one British -
did, just no Soviets.

BTW, the Soviets also flew combat sorties for Iraqis during the war
with Iran (or is this another "big secret" in your opinion?): two
were killed while flying MiG-27s, at least two more while flying
MiG-25s - all in air combats with Iranian F-14s. One more was shot
down while flying MiG-27 by Iranian Phantoms, but he survived.

In exchange they shot down nothing.

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well as photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the press. The
building was the right building and after the war even Syria admitted it
happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...

snip



This was acknowleged the day it happened by US Intellegence as well as
photo
shots that appeared in the NY Times released by the IAF to the press. The
building was the right building and after the war even Syria admitted it
happend. It is you that are full of Bull ****.

Aha. Interesting.

So, what you say in essence is this:
- the air battle provoked by the IDF/AF on 30 July 1970 never happened,

- the Soviets never participated in this battle,

- what happened during this battle was never revealed to the public,

- the Syrians were soooooooooooooooooooooooo endlessly dumb that they put
their "War Room" in the middle of the building with the HQs of their Army
during the War in 1973, so that the IDF/AF could find and hit the place.


.....and all of this because you don't know that the details about the air
battle on 30 July were revealed, and because you think that the Soviets did
not took part in the air battle against the Israelis, as well as because you
don't have a slightest clue about where the Syrian "War Room" was, and,
finally, because the US president was threatening to attack the USSR with
nuclear bombs if this would happen?

Do you understand how silly this is?

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
and,
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585