Bad Engrish?

Shirl,

The question couldn't GET any more basic than that, and even after
asking four times, the guy *did not understand* that it was a
*question*, NOT a clearance.


Missed that one. Again, there are NO questions asked by changing
inflection in standard phraseology. The proper way would have been
"confirm you have been cleared..." or something like that.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

There is no correlation between the quality of the instructor and the pay she
receives in my area.


Yes, there is. I know instructors in Paris.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:29:40 -0700, deanwil wrote:

The Air China captain didn't understand what had happened until the tapes
were replayed in a simulator, at which point he was reportedly quite
shocked.

I don't understand. The captain was in the plane at the time of the
event, so why would "reliving" the event in a simulator help his
understanding? I'm obviously missing/misunderstanding something.

- Andrew

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:40:15 -0400, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

Oh ... good ... God!



Yes?

No, no. The "good" one was being invoked.

- Andrew

On Jun 29, 1:37 pm, Andrew Gideon wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 08:29:40 -0700, deanwil wrote:
The Air China captain didn't understand what had happened until the tapes
were replayed in a simulator, at which point he was reportedly quite
shocked.

I don't understand. The captain was in the plane at the time of the
event, so why would "reliving" the event in a simulator help his
understanding? I'm obviously missing/misunderstanding something.

- Andrew

Apparently the snap-roll occured so fast that he didn't realize what
exactly had occured or why. The simulator replay allowed him to see
what led up to the event, and how the event actually transpired.
Remember, he had been engaged in the engine shutdown checklist, and
probably wasn't paying a lot of attention to what was happening until
he realize he was in an upset attitude. At least that was my
interpretation when I heard the story originally...

Here is the NTSB report, but it is very brief and doesn't go into the
detail that I heard from the Boeing chief mechanic:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...85AA015&rpt=fi

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Mxsmanic,

The AIM and glossary do not provide sentences, only sentence fragments
(with
rare exceptions).

Read them (again)!

If the foreigner can understand English, he can understand "non-standard"
phrases.

He is not required to understand general English, he is required to
understand
aviation English and standard phraseology. There's a reason common
language
questions are a no-no in radio work.

Even you can figure it out.

Apparantly not.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

wrote in message ...
Here is the NTSB report, but it is very brief and doesn't go into the
detail that I heard from the Boeing chief mechanic:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?...85AA015&rpt=fi


Thank you for that summary in your previous post. That fills in a few
questions I had after watching the video on this event. I haven't downloaded
the entire episode, here's the YouTube 10 minute version. Remember this is
for mass TV audience so beware some accuracy holes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeznpFQHbSk

On 2007-06-28 16:20:06 -0700, (Paul Tomblin) said:

In a previous article, said:
Was it just me or did it sound like the pilot was trying to BS his way
through the readback unwilling to admit that he didn't understand the word
"question"?

If there's one thing I've learned about the Chinese dealing with off-shore
programmers, it's that they will *never* admit that they don't understand
you. Even after they deliver something and you tell them it's nothing
like what you contracted for, they'll smile and nod and be very proud of
the quivering piece of **** that they delivered.

This is true in some other Asian cultures as well. The political and
social history are such that people are afraid of admitting a mistake
for fear of being severely punished, perhaps even killed, and their
families shamed.

This creates problems in the cockpit, especially if you have a
not-so-subservient American copilot on board.

"Captain, you are below glide slope."
Ignoring rude American who does not know his place.
"Captain, you are below glide slope."
continuing to ignore this appallingly rude American
"Captain, my airplane." reaches for controls
slaps American's hand -- that'll teach him!

Walking into the pilots' lounge, with dozens of other Korean pilots
there, the American copilot hauled off and decked his captain (formerly
a colonel in the South Korean Air Force) in front of everybody.

"You ever slap my hand again, I'll kill ya."

dead silence throughout the room

Amazingly, the American lived. But then, he was burly.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2007-06-29 03:09:59 -0700, Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net said:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 01:44:22 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

Granted the controller was speaking
normally as he would to someone who understood English.

I often have trouble understanding controllers. I often suspect that
they try to mumble, on the theory that if the pilot doesn't know
what's going on, then he's not much of a pilot.

"My speech is more abbreviated and monotonal than your speech, so
there!"

My most frequent requestt to ATC is "Say again" which is pretty
abbreviated and monotonal itself. So there!

Huh. My most frequent request to ATC is "Ready to depart." Never had a
problem understanding them.

The contract controller who worked the Tacoma Narrows tower *until
recently* was fired for departing the runway without a clearance. He
only flew 60 feet, though. In an automobile. Ended upside down at the
fence. Blood alcohol level was high. This was a guy who had already
been arrested twice for behavior resulting from drunkenness, such as
brawling at a bar. He was not driving the car in the recent incident.
He claims he was just sleeping there and somebody else suddenly jumped
into the car and started racing up and down the runway. Yeah, right. As
if he had never done it before. This time he got caught. Lucky he
wasn't killed. But I suppose he mumbled quite a bit giving this lame
explanation to the cops. :-)


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2007-06-28 19:33:05 -0700, "Aluckyguess" said:

The controller getting upset doesn't do any good. That just makes a bad
situation worse.

I don't think the controller was upset or angry. He spoke with emphasis
trying to make himself understood.

You either take the time or you tell him to shut the thing
down. Nobody needs to get upset. I hate it when controllers act all ****y. I
was flying through the palm springs tursa one day and ATC was getting all
over this guy in a helicopter. The guy didn't speak good English and was
getting more and more confused as the guy yelled at him. I almost asked for
his number so I could call him and remind him what his job was. His job is
to make sure everyone is safe not panic some new pilot into running into the
side of a mountain. After he gets the situation under control he can tell
the pilot to call and yell at him without the whole world listening.

I think you would have been way out of line to call him. The helicopter
pilot is obligated to obey ATC instructions. The controller has no way
of keeping people from running into each other or into mountains if
they just do whatever they want because they don't understand English.
If the helicopter pilot panicked and flew into a mountain it would have
been his fault, not the controller's.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor