Bad Engrish?

Thomas Borchert wrote:
It's an easy sentence, agreed. However, it is NOT a sentence in the AIM
nor the Pilot/Controller Glossary or the ICAO standard phraseology. It is
also not the proper way to phrase a question in standard phraseology. It
is plain English, but that doesn't help a foreigner trained to expect
standard aviation phraseology. And THAT is exactly what standard
phraseology is for.

So, to sum up: It's a non-standard phrase and a non-standard way to ask
something. How much LESS standard can it get?

The reg is that you can speak, read, write, and understand English. It
doesn't specify that you only have to know how to understand and respond
to standard phraseology. Understanding English covers the whole
language, not just aviation phraseology.

Shirl,

The reg is that you can speak, read, write, and understand English.


Which one, for someone flying in US airspace, with a foreign
certificate in a foreign-registered aircraft?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert writes:

Which one, for someone flying in US airspace, with a foreign
certificate in a foreign-registered aircraft?

ICAO covers all.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Thomas Borchert writes:

Which one, for someone flying in US airspace, with a foreign
certificate in a foreign-registered aircraft?

ICAO covers all.

Clueless.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Thomas Borchert writes:

Which one, for someone flying in US airspace, with a foreign
certificate in a foreign-registered aircraft?

ICAO covers all.

If ICAO covers all, and my airport doesn't have an ICAO identifier, I guess
it doesn't exist.

Or could it be that you are mistaken (again)

On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:35:21 -0700, Shirl
wrote in
:

The reg is that you can speak, read, write, and understand English.

Are you able to cite the regulation to which you refer that requires
reading and writing English?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 16:35:21 -0700, Shirl
wrote in
:

The reg is that you can speak, read, write, and understand English.

Are you able to cite the regulation to which you refer that requires
reading and writing English?


That would involve admitting to a mistake. It will never happen. He'll
either ignore the request entirely, or answer a question you didn't ask.

Shirl:
The reg is that you can speak, read, write, and understand English.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
Are you able to cite the regulation to which you refer that requires
reading and writing English?

"El Maximo" wrote:
That would involve admitting to a mistake. It will never happen. He'll
either ignore the request entirely, or answer a question you didn't ask.

El Maximo, I was the one (Shirl) who said that about the reg. I did not
see the request until this moment -- I wasn't ignoring it.

I admit, I quoted the wrong reg -- that *is* what the reg says,
verbatim, for a US pilot; I don't know what it says for a foreign pilot
flying in the US on a foreign certificate. Do you? I'd be surprised if
it says or implies that ONLY English "aviation phraseology" is required.
IMO, it's common sense that flying into airports as busy as JFK, SFO or
LAX, you'd have to have ENOUGH understanding of something as simple as
"were you cleared to the ramp?" even if it isn't "standard" aviation
phraseology.

If there had been a runway incursion or accident, I don't think the
controller would have been held responsible for the China Air pilot not
understanding because he used the words "were you cleared to the ramp?"
instead of "confirm clearance to the ramp". I know you can't stand
*what's his name* here, but I agree that if the China Air pilot's
English isn't good enough to understand something THAT basic, or the
difference between "Mike/Alpha" and "November" after it was repeated 4
times, that should be an issue.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:45:02 -0700, Shirl
wrote in
:

Shirl:
The reg is that you can speak, read, write, and understand English.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
Are you able to cite the regulation to which you refer that requires
reading and writing English?

I admit, I quoted the wrong reg -- that *is* what the reg says,
verbatim, for a US pilot;

Are you able to identify that particular regulation? I am unaware of
an FAA regulation that requires reading and writing English.

I don't know what it says for a foreign pilot
flying in the US on a foreign certificate. Do you?

This follow up article was posted earlier in this message thread:


From: Dallas
Message-ID:
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 04:47:54 GMT

The ICAO will require as of March of 2008, that all pilots flying
internationally and all Air Traffic Controllers must pass the ICAO
level 4 language standards exam for English proficiency.

In this case:
d. handle successfully and with relative ease the linguistic
challenges presented by a complication or unexpected turn of
events that occurs within the context of a routine work situation
or communicative task with which they are otherwise familiar; and

e. use a dialect or accent which is intelligible to the
aeronautical community.

Details:
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#20



There's a lot of additional information at that link:

In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate
proficiency?

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language
proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic
controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any
language used for radiotelephony communications in international
operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall
demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language
used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations
serving designated airports and routes used by international air
services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well
as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

For more information, please refer to Annex 1, Chapter 1,
paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10,
Volume II, Chapter 5. Please, also refer to the FAQ "Guidance on
the evaluation of language proficiency".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ICAO Rating Scale for Operational Level 4

A speaker will be rated at Operational Level 4 if the following
criteria are met:

Pronunciation: (Assumes a dialect and/or accent intelligible to
the aeronautical community.)
Pronunciation, stress, rhythm, and intonation are influenced by
the first language or regional variation but only sometimes
interfere with ease of understanding.

Structu
(Relevant grammatical structures and sentence patterns are
determined by language functions appropriate to the task.)
Basic grammatical structures and sentence patterns are used
creatively and are usually well controlled. Errors may occur,
particularly in unusual or unexpected circumstances, but rarely
interfere with meaning.

Vocabulary:
Vocabulary range and accuracy are usually sufficient to
communicate effectively on common, concrete, and work-related
topics. Can often paraphrase successfully when lacking vocabulary
in unusual or unexpected circumstances.

Fluency:
Produces stretches of language at an appropriate tempo. There may
be occasional loss of fluency on transition from rehearsed or
formulaic speech to spontaneous interaction, but this does not
prevent effective communication. Can make limited use of discourse
markers or connectors. Fillers are not distracting.

Comprehension:
Comprehension is mostly accurate on common, concrete, and
work-related topics when the accent or variety used is
sufficiently intelligible for an international community of users.
When the speaker is confronted with a linguistic or situational
complication or an unexpected turn of events, comprehension may be
slower or require clarification strategies.

Interactions:
Responses are usually immediate, appropriate, and informative.
Initiates and maintains exchanges even when dealing with an
unexpected turn of events. Deals adequately with apparent
misunderstandings by checking, confirming, or clarifying.
For information on the complete ICAO language proficiency rating
scale, please refer to the Attachment to Annex 1.


I'd be surprised if it says or implies that ONLY English "aviation phraseology"
is required.

It seems to imply that in the US, English is required:

Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate
language proficiency in either English or the language used by the
station on the ground.


But I've never seen a requirement to read and write English as you
stated.

Shirl:
I admit, I quoted the wrong reg -- that *is* what the reg says,
verbatim, for a US pilot;

Larry Dighera wrote:
Are you able to identify that particular regulation? I am unaware of
an FAA regulation that requires reading and writing English.

61.103 Eligibility requirements
General.
To be eligible for a private pilot certificate, a person must:
[a, b...]
(c) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.
If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to
medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating
limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for
the safe operation of the aircraft.

I don't know what it says for a foreign pilot
flying in the US on a foreign certificate. Do you?

In this case:
d. handle successfully and with relative ease the linguistic
challenges presented by a complication or unexpected turn of
events that occurs within the context of a routine work situation
or communicative task with which they are otherwise familiar; and

e. use a dialect or accent which is intelligible to the
aeronautical community.

I doubt anyone would consider "were you cleared to the ramp" to be a
"linguistic challenge" and *could* be a question asked about a VERY
routine communicative task (being cleared to the ramp).

Further:

Therefore, pilots on international flights shall
demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language
used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations
serving designated airports and routes used by international air
services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well
as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

The controller speaking to the China Air pilot demonstrated language
proficiency in English; what I heard from the China Air pilot did not --
he couldn't even read back his instruction accurately.

Structu
(Relevant grammatical structures and sentence patterns are
determined by language functions appropriate to the task.)
Basic grammatical structures and sentence patterns are used
creatively and are usually well controlled. Errors may occur,
particularly in unusual or unexpected circumstances, but rarely
interfere with meaning.

Obviously, hearing and understanding "November" when the controller
clearly said "Mike/Alpha" multiple times definitely would have
interfered with meaning if the controller hadn't pursued it to confirm
that the China Air pilot knew where he was supposed to go.

Vocabulary:
Vocabulary range and accuracy are usually sufficient to
communicate effectively on common, concrete, and work-related
topics. Can often paraphrase successfully when lacking vocabulary
in unusual or unexpected circumstances.

Does that apply to the controller, too? Asking "were you cleared to the
ramp?" is just another way to paraphrase "confirm your clearance to the
ramp".

Comprehension:
Comprehension is mostly accurate on common, concrete, and
work-related topics when the accent or variety used is
sufficiently intelligible for an international community of users.
When the speaker is confronted with a linguistic or situational
complication or an unexpected turn of events, comprehension may be
slower or require clarification strategies.

Okay, on this, it could be argued whether or not "were you cleared to
the ramp?" could be considered a "linguistic or situational complication
or an unexpected turn of events"! I sure don't interpret that question
as such ... doesn't seem a question could be much more straightforward
than that about a routine event to an airline pilot after landing.

Interactions:
Responses are usually immediate, appropriate, and informative.
Initiates and maintains exchanges even when dealing with an
unexpected turn of events. Deals adequately with apparent
misunderstandings by checking, confirming, or clarifying.
For information on the complete ICAO language proficiency rating
scale, please refer to the Attachment to Annex 1.

I heard the controller checking, confirming and clarifying, but the
China Air pilot didn't answer the question until the 4th or 5th time he
was asked, and read back the WRONG taxi clearance more than once also.

I'd be surprised if it says or implies that ONLY English "aviation
phraseology" is required.

It seems to imply that in the US, English is required:

Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate
language proficiency in either English or the language used by the
station on the ground.

Yes, it does. And that clip I heard of the China Air pilot is not what I
would call a demonstration of "language proficiency" in English.

Shirl