Bomber-jacket leather and our law

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: "Tex Houston" 777
Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Mike Yared" wrote in message
...
from http://www.washtimes.com/national/inring.htm
Buy Pakistani?
The Pentagon is about to waive "buy American" provisions of U.S. law
and
allow Pakistan to provide the goatskin leather used in the distinctive
U.S.
aviator bomber jackets. The Defense Department has notified a U.S. leather
tanner that it will waive provisions of the law known as the Berry
Amendment
that requires the Pentagon to buy key components from U.S. manufacturers.
In
April, the Pentagon announced it would buy 12,000 to 30,000 of the brown,
fur-collared bomber jackets over the next several years.

No reason US tanneries can't meet that small demand spread over
several years. Jeez, more leather jackets than that where made in a
month during WWII.

I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but I
think someone is describing a WWII item.

They are describing the USN G-1 (I'm wearing one today), but the spec
for that jacket was changed from goat to cow back in '69 or '70. G-1s
are still made of goat for the public, but I thought all the jackets
produced for the Navy were cow. Maybe some are goat...

The USAF uses goat for their current A-2, and recently made changes to
the jacket pattern to make it easier to procure quality goatskin for
the jackets.

As for using US or foreign leather, who cares? The US shouldn't even
be producing either jacket. Both the A-2 and G-1 are useless in the
cockpit of modern AC. I don't buy the story that there is a shortage
of goatskin in the US though.

If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the designation. It sure wasn't an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes Belgium after the Koblenz mission.

You're wearing a B-10, probably my favorite flight jacket.
Standardized in July '43, arrived in the ETO in March '44 and were
used through the end of the war. No leather in it though... cotton
shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

~Michael

Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: (Michael)
Date: 9/15/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: "Tex Houston" 777
Date: 9/12/03 6:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Mike Yared" wrote in message
...



I'm around the USAF a lot and I don't remember any such item as a brown
fur-collared bomber jacket as current issue. A-2 aircrew jacket maybe but



If you go to my website and click on "After Koblenz" I am wearing a fur
collared flight jacket, but I don't recall the designation. It sure wasn't
an A-2. The shot was made in 1944 at Florennes Belgium after the Koblenz
mission.

You're wearing a B-10, probably my favorite flight jacket.
Standardized in July '43, arrived in the ETO in March '44 and were
used through the end of the war. No leather in it though... cotton
shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

~Michael


Yeah it was a nice warm jacket. Not as jazzy as my A-2 but a hell of a lot
warmer. And now that you mention B-10 it rings a bell. Thanks.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

No leather in it though... cotton
shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter?
pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their
leather jackets.

Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns. Pilots
continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about
this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in
leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals,
they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Subject: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: Cub Driver
Date: 9/16/03 2:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

No leather in it though... cotton
shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter?
pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their
leather jackets.

Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns. Pilots
continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about
this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in
leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals,
they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com


I notice that you only reference pilots and pilot preferences in regard to
jackets. It took a lot more than just pilots in bombers to get the entire job
done, How soon they forget.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(Michael) wrote:

No leather in it though... cotton shell with an alpaca lining.
Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you wear an F-3 suit
under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

Back in my H.S. days on the ranch I often wore my Dad's
arctic flight jacket while doing the chores. Dark blue nylon
with the old 50's-era USAF insignia dyed on the shoulder.
Ideal when sitting in a saddle rounding up the herd at 30-below
zero since it was neatly trimmed at the waist, had a full,
zippered hood lined with genuine wolf hair that completely
kept out the driving snow (although it was like looking through a
tunnel). The heavy jacket was issued to him while stationed at
Elmendorf back in the early 60's and still hangs in my closet.
Quality, unique jacket, and when traveling up north heads turn
to admire it.

-Mike Marron

Mike Marron wrote:


Back in my H.S. days on the ranch I often wore my Dad's
arctic flight jacket while doing the chores. Dark blue nylon
with the old 50's-era USAF insignia dyed on the shoulder.
Ideal when sitting in a saddle rounding up the herd at 30-below
zero since it was neatly trimmed at the waist, had a full,
zippered hood lined with genuine wolf hair that completely
kept out the driving snow (although it was like looking through a
tunnel). The heavy jacket was issued to him while stationed at
Elmendorf back in the early 60's and still hangs in my closet.
Quality, unique jacket, and when traveling up north heads turn
to admire it.

-Mike Marron


The RCAF 'Winter Flying Jacket' sounds quite similar to this.
Dark blue nylon outer shell with a smooth nylon quilted and
insulated interior. some kind of long coarse hair around the full
zippered hood. Great jacket for maintaining your body temp in a
chilly goose blind.
--

-Gord.

I rode fence in

I rode fence in Colorado winters (on sunny days) in a Royal Canadian Navy sea
coat. It was thick lined cotton, about the length of a USN pea coat, and wore
like iron until I lost it in a bar in Taos. Where did you ranch, Mike?
Joe F

Back in my H.S. days on the ranch I often wore my Dad's
arctic flight jacket while doing the chores. Dark blue nylon
with the old 50's-era USAF insignia dyed on the shoulder.
Ideal when sitting in a saddle rounding up the herd at 30-below

(Jdf4cheval) wrote:

I rode fence in Colorado winters (on sunny days) in a Royal Canadian Navy sea
coat. It was thick lined cotton, about the length of a USN pea coat, and wore
like iron until I lost it in a bar in Taos. Where did you ranch, Mike?

A little college town in the northwestern corner of Nebraska named
Chadron near the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. My @#!*&% older
brother lost a snarling, ears-laid-back stuffed BEAR head in a fuggen
bar bet.

-Mike (grr) Marron

Cub Driver wrote in message . ..
On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:14 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

No leather in it though... cotton
shell with an alpaca lining. Much warmer than an A-2 (or a B-3 if you
wear an F-3 suit under B-10) and much easier to mass produce.

I think it was about the time of The Great Santini when the fighter?
pilots of the USAF persuaded the guvmint to give them back their
leather jackets.

The USAF brought the A-2 back in '87 or '88. The story as I read it
was that a squadron commander saw the A-2s his men were buying
privately to wear off base, and thought it might be a good moral
builder if he could get approval for the entire squadron to get them
to wear on duty. His request went up the chain of command and someone
along the way got the idea they'd be a good moral builder for all USAF
aircrew and it went from there.

Cotton of course is better than nylon, but it still burns.

I don't know which is better or worse. The AAF only made cotton
flight jackets for the last two years of WWII, then switched to nylon,
which they used until the 70s. So I'd assume the nylon was giving
them some sort of advantage the cotton wasn't and that's why they used
it, but who knows. Neither's as good as Nomex, that's for sure.

Pilots continue to favor leather today, though they aren't consistent about
this. I've never seen a pilot at the local airfield togged out in
leather helmet or trousers. Probably, like the Great Santini's pals,
they like the leather jacket for its WWI and WWII associations.

Oh, no doubt. The leather jackets have a lot more style than the
nylon and Nomex ones, and a certain vintage mystique that gives them
lots of appeal. But a leather windbreaker designed in the '30s and
intended for summer use in an open cockpit doesn't really fit in today
though. The AAF realized the A-2 didn't fit in in the 40s, and that's
why they switched to the B-10. Leather is too hot and doesn't breathe
in a closed cockpit at lower alt, and isn't warm enough at high alt.
In the case of the Navy's jacket, the G-1, I've read it hasn't been
worn in aircraft with ejection seats since the 50s because its fur
collar gets in the way of harnesses, the helmet and its wiring.

Why on earth we still make either jacket (A-2 & G-1) for military use
is beyond me. They aren't fucntional in the air, they fit into a
limited temp range on the ground, and the current jackets just aren't
that good looking IMHO (*especially* when compared to vintage jackets
from the 30s-50s). But if they make the guys and gals feel better, I
guess we'll keep making 'em. Spending $100-$150 on a jacket for
someone isn't that much after you've already spent millions training
them, is it?

~Michael