flaps

"Kobra" wrote:
On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming out
of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.

Then you should have gone around. Plan every approach to be a go-around,
and only make the decision to land when you get to the threshold and
everything is good.

10 kts too fast over the threshold is pretty significant. I don't fly the
177RG, but I found a checklist on the net that lists normal landing speeds
at 60-70 kts and Vfe (top of the white arc, which is what you said you were
doing on final) as 95. That's 25-35 kts too fast to land. I'm amazed you
managed to get it stopped in 3000 feet. In fact, I can't believe you were
really going that fast over the threshold, it's just not possible.

The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.

A tailwind will increase your groundspeed, but not your airspeed.

Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he used
a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane without
the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.

From a strictly legal point of view, if you knew the flaps were broken, the
plane was not airworthy. From a safety point of view, however, I'd say you
did the right thing by consulting a mechanic to get an experienced opinion.
Technically, you needed a ferry permit to take off again, and your mechanic
using the p-word on the phone doesn't quite qualify. But I digress.

I took off and started to ponder the situation:

The pondering should have happened before you took off. Once you're in the
air, you can ponder all you want, but you still need to land the airplane.

No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with my
primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.

From a pure performance point of view, your mechanic was right. With
proper technique, landing a 177RG on 3500 feet without flaps and zero wind
should be a no-brainer. Even on a hot a muggy summer day like it was this
weekend, there's plenty of performance margin to make it a non-event if you
know how to do it.

But, at night, in poor visibility, with no landing light to help you judge
your height above the runway, and having never practiced them seems like
the wrong time to be learning. None of these things are serious by
themselves, but it sounds like it all adds up to a case of get-home-itis to
me.

I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted to
come in as flat as possible.

That sounds like a good decision.

Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?

Piper and Cessna took interesting divergent paths when they designed their
airplanes. Piper decided they were going to use electric trim and manual
flaps. Cessna decided on electric flaps and manual trim. In both cases,
each manufacturer added one totally unnecessary electric system and thus
saddled their owners with forever pouring money into fixing them. Maybe
the high-wing design made it difficult to engineer a manual flap control
linkage? In any case, if it's not the breaker, if could be the actuator
switch, the motor, one of the micro-switches that limit movement, or any of
the wiring in between. Just bring it to your mechanic with your checkbook
and let him put another kid through college :-)

I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.

Indeed. If you fly something with electric flaps where flap failures are a
way of life, maybe a lot more often than that. With practice, no-flaps
landings in a 177 should be a piece of cake. Slips help, so practice those
too.

It also seems you planned a nighttime arrivial with a known burned out
landing light.

Little mistakes have a way of compounding themselves. You may want to
sit in a quiet place and think about your go - no go criteria for a
while. The two best outcomes of all of this is you made a safe trip,
and you have an opportunigy to make future trips safer.

On Jul 10, 9:37 am, Tina wrote:
It also seems you planned a nighttime arrivial with a known burned out
landing light.

Tina,
My understanding is that landing night is not a requirement for non
commerical flight

==============
Sec. 91.205 & 91.507
Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
.............................
(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.
==============
During my training, my instructor had me landed with and without
landing light at night. I actually found it was easier to land
without landing light.

Little mistakes have a way of compounding themselves. You may want to
sit in a quiet place and think about your go - no go criteria for a
while. The two best outcomes of all of this is you made a safe trip,
and you have an opportunigy to make future trips safer.

Although I generally agree with your statement. I find your
comments to be somewhat condescending. I do not know Kobra
personally but I have read quite a few of his postings. He is an
experienced pilot who is always willing to share his experience be it
good or bad for all of us, pilots, to learn. I don't think that he
needs to be told 'to sit in a quiet place and think....' !


Hai Longworth

I agree, it is not, so long as it is not a 'for hire' flight.

Never the less, one might want to review the decision to make a flight
with an airplane that has to be landed in an unfamiliar confirguration
at night without a landing light.

I'm speaking as a non pilot here, so my concerns might be unfounded.

Tina,
My understanding is that landing night is not a requirement for non
commerical flight

==============

"Longworth" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 10, 9:37 am, Tina wrote:
It also seems you planned a nighttime arrivial with a known burned out
landing light.

Tina,
My understanding is that landing night is not a requirement for non
commerical flight

==============
Sec. 91.205 & 91.507
Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness
certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
............................
(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.
==============
During my training, my instructor had me landed with and without
landing light at night. I actually found it was easier to land
without landing light.

Little mistakes have a way of compounding themselves. You may want to
sit in a quiet place and think about your go - no go criteria for a
while. The two best outcomes of all of this is you made a safe trip,
and you have an opportunigy to make future trips safer.

Although I generally agree with your statement. I find your
comments to be somewhat condescending. I do not know Kobra
personally but I have read quite a few of his postings. He is an
experienced pilot who is always willing to share his experience be it
good or bad for all of us, pilots, to learn. I don't think that he
needs to be told 'to sit in a quiet place and think....' !


Hai Longworth


I agree with Tina, at least about re-thinking the sequence of risky
decisions that were made. The landing light was only one of those decisions.
The failure to notice trim adjustments not being required while extending
flaps, the failure to push the go-up lever and reconsider the approach, etc
are all risky decisions. Tina was pointing out that this flight was a series
of those events. It is ironic that the AOPAs Flight Safety Foundation
program this year is focused on breaking the chain of events (bad decisions)
that lead up to accidents. Kobra was skilled enough to force the final
result, but he kept throwing away his safety options along the way. Things
could have turned out much differently, and then we'd all be berating the
press for its one-sided coverage of another mishap; but that's another
thread...

Most likely your instructor had you land without the landing light as a
non-standard event that would be possible if the light burnt out while in
flight. I seriously doubt that an instructor would encourage any student or
pilot for that matter to intentionally depart for a flight after dark
knowing the landing light was inop.

I'm also willing to bet that most instructors teach students how to
go-around in the event the landing doesn't look or feel right, which Kobra
noted was the case here.

Nothing about this chain of events should be construed to be normal
practice. Tina is correct that we can all learn from this example of how
events get strung together and can lead up to a very risky situation.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

Roger,

I subcribed to NASA Callback and had filed a NASA report once
(eventhough everything I did in that flight was legal). I think the
very fact that a pilot filed a report or posted their experience
indicates that he/she had reflected on the event, learned a lesson
from it and wanted to share the experience with others to learn. I
don't think that any pilot could honesty say that he/she had never
made a bad decision or an error.

Kobra was surprised that he did not notice that the flaps were
inoperative. He called his mechanic. He pondered about the
situation. He advised others to go practice no-flap landings. He
certainly DID think enough about the incidence to post it here. He
might have even thought about it while sitting in a quiet corner ;-)

Everytime that I read a post about some bad events from a fellow
pilot, I always cringe in seeing reprimanding or scolding remarks from
the Monday morning quarrterback or armchair pilots. It's a good thing
the Callback site does not have a readers' feedback option!

I have flown for less than 7 years and have just a bit shy of
700hrs. I have learned a lot about flying, about safety, about my own
capability and limitation skillwise and judgementwise from other
pilots, from posts such as this one by Kobra. I am a very safety
minded flyer. I do my best not to fly when being stressed, tired. I
am very lucky to have a constant copilot to share the workload. I
fully sympathize with the single pilot especially single pilot
IFR. Flying can be very demanding. I can see myself making the
same errors as confessed by other pilots under similar circumstances.
I am grateful to learn from their mistakes. I do not want to see
people gets discouraged or afraid of posting their flying experience
for fear of criticism or condemnation.

Hai Longworth

"Longworth" wrote in message
oups.com...
Roger,

I subcribed to NASA Callback and had filed a NASA report once
(eventhough everything I did in that flight was legal). I think the
very fact that a pilot filed a report or posted their experience
indicates that he/she had reflected on the event, learned a lesson
from it and wanted to share the experience with others to learn. I
don't think that any pilot could honesty say that he/she had never
made a bad decision or an error.

Amen.

Al G

On 07/11/07 07:01, Longworth wrote:

[ snip ]


I have flown for less than 7 years and have just a bit shy of
700hrs. I have learned a lot about flying, about safety, about my own
capability and limitation skillwise and judgementwise from other
pilots, from posts such as this one by Kobra. I am a very safety
minded flyer. I do my best not to fly when being stressed, tired. I
am very lucky to have a constant copilot to share the workload. I
fully sympathize with the single pilot especially single pilot
IFR. Flying can be very demanding. I can see myself making the
same errors as confessed by other pilots under similar circumstances.
I am grateful to learn from their mistakes. I do not want to see
people gets discouraged or afraid of posting their flying experience
for fear of criticism or condemnation.

Hai Longworth


I agree 100%, Hai. I hope Kobra and others continue to post these type
of accounts. I learn a lot by reading and participating.

Longworth wrote:
Everytime that I read a post about some bad events from a fellow
pilot, I always cringe in seeing reprimanding or scolding remarks from
the Monday morning quarrterback or armchair pilots. It's a good thing
the Callback site does not have a readers' feedback option!

Well said.
Dave
M35

On Jul 10, 6:51 am, Roy Smith wrote:


Then you should have gone around. Plan every approach to be a go-around,
and only make the decision to land when you get to the threshold and
everything is good.

Exactly. Most landing accidents happen when things aren't
coming together properly and the pilot insists on landing anyway. If
this runway had been icy he'd likely have written the airplane off.

Piper and Cessna took interesting divergent paths when they designed their
airplanes. Piper decided they were going to use electric trim and manual
flaps. Cessna decided on electric flaps and manual trim. In both cases,
each manufacturer added one totally unnecessary electric system and thus
saddled their owners with forever pouring money into fixing them. Maybe
the high-wing design made it difficult to engineer a manual flap control
linkage?

Cessna originally built their singles with manual flaps.
The 172 didn't get electric flaps until around 1967. The 180/185 never
had them. Those airplanes could be landed really short, because the
pilot could approach at minimum airspeed and dump the flaps instantly
on touchdown and get lots of weight on the mains for braking. Electric
flaps are too slow to retract.

In any case, if it's not the breaker, if could be the actuator
switch, the motor, one of the micro-switches that limit movement, or any of
the wiring in between. Just bring it to your mechanic with your checkbook
and let him put another kid through college :-)

If It's what I think and the airplane has the preselector-type
flap control, one of the microswitches on the lever follower is dead
or disconnected. They do that.

Dan