Insuring a Columbia 400 & weekend only insurance

Justin Gombos wrote:
On 2007-07-03, Gig 601XL Builder wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

I also doubt you are going to find a carrier that would be willing
to start a policy every Friday and end it on Sunday.

That's not what I was looking for anyway. I would be more interested
in an annual policy that is effectively excludes flying incidents
Monday-Thursday.


But that is pretty much what they'd be doing anyway. What makes you think
that your risk flying 50 hours per year only on weekend would be any less
than the guy in the next hanger who flys 50 hours a year but on any day of
the week?

In fact since there will be more recreational pilots flying on weekend the
chance that you would run into one of them increases. There would also be
the added concern that on one of your weekend jaunts you would be more
likely to fly in worst weather because waiting until Monday isn't an option.

But it all boils down to the fact that the insurance company's risk would
not be reduced enough for you to even notice the difference.

On 2007-07-11, Gig 601XL Builder wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Justin Gombos wrote:
On 2007-07-03, Gig 601XL Builder wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

I also doubt you are going to find a carrier that would be willing
to start a policy every Friday and end it on Sunday.

That's not what I was looking for anyway. I would be more
interested in an annual policy that is effectively excludes flying
incidents Monday-Thursday.


But that is pretty much what they'd be doing anyway. What makes you
think that your risk flying 50 hours per year only on weekend would
be any less than the guy in the next hanger who flys 50 hours a year
but on any day of the week?

If insurers were counting hours, this discussion would be moot. They
may be estimating hours in their formula, but the accuracy of that
estimate is terrible if the same number is being used for a weekend
pilot as a daily pilot.

In fact since there will be more recreational pilots flying on
weekend the chance that you would run into one of them
increases.

Sure, but that risk is the same for a pilot insured daily flying on
the weekend (neglecting the experience factor, which is a variable
that's already accounted for in the premium).

There would also be the added concern that on one of your weekend
jaunts you would be more likely to fly in worst weather because
waiting until Monday isn't an option.

I disagree. A pilot willing to fly in unsafe weather will have more
opportunities to do so if they can fly every day. The pilot confined
to weekend travel only flies weekends for a reason. If their schedule
prevents them from flights on workdays, then being insured on weekdays
doesn't make the better weather flight time any more viable.

But it all boils down to the fact that the insurance company's risk
would not be reduced enough for you to even notice the difference.

That's a reasonable speculation, but I'm more inclined to think the
very small market and lack of competition is preventing insurers from
taking advantage of this. If no provider breaks the 365 day insurance
trend, all providers can collect artificially high premiums from
weekend pilots.

--
PM instructions: do a caesar cipher on the alpha characters in my address using +3 as the key.

"Justin Gombos" wrote in message
news:%lgli.6962$lY4.6432@trndny07...
On 2007-07-11, Gig 601XL Builder wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Justin Gombos wrote:
On 2007-07-03, Gig 601XL Builder wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

I also doubt you are going to find a carrier that would be willing
to start a policy every Friday and end it on Sunday.

That's not what I was looking for anyway. I would be more
interested in an annual policy that is effectively excludes flying
incidents Monday-Thursday.


But that is pretty much what they'd be doing anyway. What makes you
think that your risk flying 50 hours per year only on weekend would
be any less than the guy in the next hanger who flys 50 hours a year
but on any day of the week?

If insurers were counting hours, this discussion would be moot. They
may be estimating hours in their formula, but the accuracy of that
estimate is terrible if the same number is being used for a weekend
pilot as a daily pilot.

In fact since there will be more recreational pilots flying on
weekend the chance that you would run into one of them
increases.

Sure, but that risk is the same for a pilot insured daily flying on
the weekend (neglecting the experience factor, which is a variable
that's already accounted for in the premium).

There would also be the added concern that on one of your weekend
jaunts you would be more likely to fly in worst weather because
waiting until Monday isn't an option.

I disagree. A pilot willing to fly in unsafe weather will have more
opportunities to do so if they can fly every day. The pilot confined
to weekend travel only flies weekends for a reason. If their schedule
prevents them from flights on workdays, then being insured on weekdays
doesn't make the better weather flight time any more viable.

But it all boils down to the fact that the insurance company's risk
would not be reduced enough for you to even notice the difference.

That's a reasonable speculation, but I'm more inclined to think the
very small market and lack of competition is preventing insurers from
taking advantage of this. If no provider breaks the 365 day insurance
trend, all providers can collect artificially high premiums from
weekend pilots.

You can speculate from heere to forever, but most everyone you've listed is
falt out wrong.


Do you understand why pilots that fly a lot of hours ( 250 hrs / year)
have greatly reduced insurance rates?
--
Matt Barrow
Performance Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY

On 2007-07-12, Matt Barrow wrote:

Do you understand why pilots that fly a lot of hours ( 250 hrs /
year) have greatly reduced insurance rates?

I'm not sure I understand how an insurer would even know how many
hours a pilot is flying for the current policy year. I can see how an
insurer would value air time logged in the *past* (which I assume is
already factored into the rate quote for the following term). Do
pilots update their insurers mid-term to get mid-term rate reductions?

At the risk of being wrong, I'm going to speculate that there is a
sweet spot amount of airtime where a pilot has achieved enough
experience to be considered substantially skilled and current, and the
benefit of experiencing many more hours beyond that point probably
tapers off and simply becomes more risky because they're in danger
more often and not learning and improving at the same rate. I would
not expect the learning curve of piloting to be exponential or even
linear, but rather logarithmic.

Suppose someone has 3k+ hours under their belt, and they're going to
cut back and just fly weekends. If I were their insurer (who
admittedly knows very little about aviation insurance) I would be
tempted to favor the weekend situation over the situation where the
same pilot continues to fly 40+ hours/week, because they're already
well experienced and current; so in all those additional expected
hours I would expect the pilot to encounter more incidents, and
relatively fewer opportunities to improve.

--
PM instructions: caesar cipher the alpha chars in my addy (key = +3).

You may want to think about insurance costs this way. Each company
will want to charge a fee that their experience indicates will provide
them a profit.

They have data and experience across many pilots and many airplanes,
they roll the statistical dice, and hope their bets are good ones. You
can argue theory and 'it-ought-to-be's' for ever, but in the end as an
individual you're going to either buy a proffered policy, or not.

You are really too small an account to have leverage or to have a
Lloyd's 'name' step forward for you.

The reality is, private ownership probably makes sense if the airplane
is going to see something like 250 or so hours or more a year of use.
Less than that, and you are probably better off being a member of a
club or maybe a partnership.

You can surely present your arguments here, but why not do what you'd
have to do in the final analysis and contact the several companies and
ask them for a quote. Further, you might ask what might be done to
reduce the quote.

I suspect it's unrealistic to own a newer hull, or even an older one,
if you expect to fly an hour a week., even if it's between 8 and 9 AM
Sunday.

Let us know how you do when you talk with actual insurers. We would
all like to be wrong about the costs.

"Justin Gombos" wrote in message
news:Bgzli.7101$CJ4.6431@trndny08...
On 2007-07-12, Matt Barrow wrote:

Do you understand why pilots that fly a lot of hours ( 250 hrs /
year) have greatly reduced insurance rates?

I'm not sure I understand how an insurer would even know how many
hours a pilot is flying for the current policy year.

They ask you (and it's essentially an affirmation under oath...plus they MAY
ask for your logs)

I can see how an
insurer would value air time logged in the *past* (which I assume is
already factored into the rate quote for the following term). Do
pilots update their insurers mid-term to get mid-term rate reductions?

Experience.

You're way out of your element here and setting yourself up for a thumpin'.

"Matt Barrow" wrote

You're way out of your element here and setting yourself up for a thumpin'.

I'm beginning to think that we have a troll, or someone that who has MXS as a
hero.
--
Jim in NC

On 2007-07-13, Morgans wrote:
"Matt Barrow" wrote

You're way out of your element here and setting yourself up for a thumpin'.

I'm beginning to think that we have a troll, or someone that who has
MXS as a hero.

I don't think Barrow was out of line there. He was just warning me he
is about to unleash his firehose of information if I continue to press
forward with my questions. Your accusation that he's trolling is
indeed the first ad hominem to enter this thread. As a matter of
etiquette, you ought to have more certainty than that before making
insulting accusations. So far Barrow has been an asset to this
thread.

--
PM instructions: caesar cipher the alpha chars in my addy (key = +3).

On 2007-07-13, Matt Barrow wrote:

I'm not sure I understand how an insurer would even know how many
hours a pilot is flying for the current policy year.

They ask you (and it's essentially an affirmation under oath...plus
they MAY ask for your logs)

How often do they collect that information? I would expect them to do
that upon establishing or renewing a policy, but mid-term? If you
reveal in the middle of a policy year that you have not logged any
hours, do the rates increase?

I can see how an insurer would value air time logged in the *past*
(which I assume is already factored into the rate quote for the
following term). Do pilots update their insurers mid-term to get
mid-term rate reductions?

Experience.

You're way out of your element here and setting yourself up for a
thumpin'.

Whatever concept I'm missing, feel free to explain it to me like I'm a
two year old. I'm a noob. Give me whatever thumpin' I need to
understand you. AFAIK, my knee-jerk analysis of it tells me only
logged airtime in the past can work to reduce my insurance bill. I
see hours/days in the future as risk, and I'm surprised to hear that
an insurance company would not hold the same view.

--
PM instructions: caesar cipher the alpha chars in my addy (key = +3).

"Justin Gombos" wrote in message
news:RJDli.7129$CJ4.6231@trndny08...
On 2007-07-13, Matt Barrow wrote:

I'm not sure I understand how an insurer would even know how many
hours a pilot is flying for the current policy year.

They ask you (and it's essentially an affirmation under oath...plus
they MAY ask for your logs)

How often do they collect that information? I would expect them to do
that upon establishing or renewing a policy, but mid-term?

Typically, on renewal (annually). If you were originally claiming 50 hours a
year, and somehow managed to put in 250 hours, you could call your broker
and have him update/modify the policy.

If you
reveal in the middle of a policy year that you have not logged any
hours, do the rates increase?

Not in the middle of the year, but possibly on annual renewal. If your hours
are in the "minimum" category, there's little room to move DOWN.



I can see how an insurer would value air time logged in the *past*
(which I assume is already factored into the rate quote for the
following term). Do pilots update their insurers mid-term to get
mid-term rate reductions?

Experience.

You're way out of your element here and setting yourself up for a
thumpin'.

Whatever concept I'm missing, feel free to explain it to me like I'm a
two year old. I'm a noob. Give me whatever thumpin' I need to
understand you. AFAIK, my knee-jerk analysis of it tells me only
logged airtime in the past can work to reduce my insurance bill.

That's already been explained to you.

As for the two year-old noob, you apparently have a hard time grasping the
reality of how these things work. Did you read the PDF from Columbia about
insurance?

I see hours/days in the future as risk, and I'm surprised to hear that
an insurance company would not hold the same view.

Why don't you call an insurance broker and he will offer you good advice.

Since there's a good probability he'll make money, he'll be more than happy
to spend hours explaining things to you than most people that have bought
car insurance have already figured out at the fundamental level. As
mentioned, these points have already been explained. Deal with it.