Who Wouldn't You Fly With?

On Jul 11, 7:11 am, Andrew Gideon wrote:

The final straw was being a
minute or two from entering a pattern on a 45 to downwind having just
observed someone take off that had indicated he'd be staying in the
pattern. I suggested to my friend that we turn a bit so we'd fall in
behind that plane. My friend demurred, claiming that the [class D] tower
would prevent any collision.

Isn't that what they're there for? I'm based out of a Class D field,
and if I were in that situation (2 minutes on the 45 with a plane on
the upwind, which I've been in more than a dozen times) I sure
wouldn't take it upon me to sequence myself. At the very least, I'd
ask the controller if he wants me in front, or behind the traffic.
Most likely, the controller would make the upwind guy extend his
upwind, then have him follow me.

buttman wrote:
On Jul 11, 7:11 am, Andrew Gideon wrote:

The final straw was being a
minute or two from entering a pattern on a 45 to downwind having just
observed someone take off that had indicated he'd be staying in the
pattern. I suggested to my friend that we turn a bit so we'd fall in
behind that plane. My friend demurred, claiming that the [class D]
tower would prevent any collision.

Isn't that what they're there for? I'm based out of a Class D field,
and if I were in that situation (2 minutes on the 45 with a plane on
the upwind, which I've been in more than a dozen times) I sure
wouldn't take it upon me to sequence myself. At the very least, I'd
ask the controller if he wants me in front, or behind the traffic.
Most likely, the controller would make the upwind guy extend his
upwind, then have him follow me.

And what happens if the controllers attention is aimed somewhere else for a
moment or he just plan screws up? It is the pilots responsibility to see
and avoid traffic. I'd do exactly what Andrew suggested.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
buttman wrote:
On Jul 11, 7:11 am, Andrew Gideon wrote:

The final straw was being a
minute or two from entering a pattern on a 45 to downwind having just
observed someone take off that had indicated he'd be staying in the
pattern. I suggested to my friend that we turn a bit so we'd fall in
behind that plane. My friend demurred, claiming that the [class D]
tower would prevent any collision.

Isn't that what they're there for? I'm based out of a Class D field,
and if I were in that situation (2 minutes on the 45 with a plane on
the upwind, which I've been in more than a dozen times) I sure
wouldn't take it upon me to sequence myself. At the very least, I'd
ask the controller if he wants me in front, or behind the traffic.
Most likely, the controller would make the upwind guy extend his
upwind, then have him follow me.

And what happens if the controllers attention is aimed somewhere else for
a moment or he just plan screws up? It is the pilots responsibility to
see and avoid traffic. I'd do exactly what Andrew suggested.
Ditto! "...claiming that the [class D] tower would prevent any collision.",
is right up there with "Famous last Words".

In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Isn't that what they're there for? I'm based out of a Class D field,
and if I were in that situation (2 minutes on the 45 with a plane on
the upwind, which I've been in more than a dozen times) I sure
wouldn't take it upon me to sequence myself. At the very least, I'd
ask the controller if he wants me in front, or behind the traffic.
Most likely, the controller would make the upwind guy extend his
upwind, then have him follow me.

And what happens if the controllers attention is aimed somewhere else for a
moment or he just plan screws up? It is the pilots responsibility to see
and avoid traffic. I'd do exactly what Andrew suggested.

Class D controllers are not responsible for in-air separation, they're
responsible for runway separation. If you expect them to sort it out for
you, you're basically taunting Darwin.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
In 1665 Isaac Newton became discouraged when he fell up a flight of
stairs.

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Isn't that what they're there for? I'm based out of a Class D field,
and if I were in that situation (2 minutes on the 45 with a plane on
the upwind, which I've been in more than a dozen times) I sure
wouldn't take it upon me to sequence myself. At the very least, I'd
ask the controller if he wants me in front, or behind the traffic.
Most likely, the controller would make the upwind guy extend his
upwind, then have him follow me.

And what happens if the controllers attention is aimed somewhere
else for a moment or he just plan screws up? It is the pilots
responsibility to see and avoid traffic. I'd do exactly what Andrew
suggested.

Class D controllers are not responsible for in-air separation, they're
responsible for runway separation. If you expect them to sort it out
for you, you're basically taunting Darwin.

Watch your trimming Paul. I wrote the second paragraph not the first.

In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Most likely, the controller would make the upwind guy extend his
upwind, then have him follow me.

And what happens if the controllers attention is aimed somewhere
else for a moment or he just plan screws up? It is the pilots
responsibility to see and avoid traffic. I'd do exactly what Andrew
suggested.

Class D controllers are not responsible for in-air separation, they're
responsible for runway separation. If you expect them to sort it out
for you, you're basically taunting Darwin.

Watch your trimming Paul. I wrote the second paragraph not the first.

That's obvious from the level of '' indentation.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
#define sizeof(x) ((int)rand()*1024)

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Most likely, the controller would make the upwind guy extend his
upwind, then have him follow me.

And what happens if the controllers attention is aimed somewhere
else for a moment or he just plan screws up? It is the pilots
responsibility to see and avoid traffic. I'd do exactly what Andrew
suggested.

Class D controllers are not responsible for in-air separation,
they're responsible for runway separation. If you expect them to
sort it out for you, you're basically taunting Darwin.

Watch your trimming Paul. I wrote the second paragraph not the first.

That's obvious from the level of '' indentation.


I know that and you know that, BUT...

In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Watch your trimming Paul. I wrote the second paragraph not the first.
That's obvious from the level of '' indentation.


I know that and you know that, BUT...

Hey, if people can't figure out that, do you care what they have to say?


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
AFAICT, most national capitals have already reached bogon criticality,
passed it, seen it in the rear view memory and now look back on the
moment as a fond, if distant, memory. -- Robert Uhl

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
And what happens if the controllers attention is aimed somewhere else for
a
moment or he just plan screws up? It is the pilots responsibility to see
and avoid traffic. I'd do exactly what Andrew suggested.

Class D controllers are not responsible for in-air separation, they're
responsible for runway separation. If you expect them to sort it out for
you, you're basically taunting Darwin.

It's a fine line. I'm also based out of a Class D airport and there needs to
be at least some level of trust in the controller. They will yell at you for
re-sequencing yourself on your own. That being said, it is correct that you
are responsible for your separation and should take evasive action as needed
and answer questions later. The gray area is the perception of a collision
threat--yours may be different from the controller.

I'd do what buttman (dude, you gotta change your name. You make it hard for
people to agree with you. I feel reluctant to state that "I'm with
Buttman!") would do and keep going while keeping a close eye on the suspect
traffic and kindly querying the controller with "do you want me in the front
or behind that traffic?" And if they knew your newsgroup name, they would
know your preference...

Marco

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:05:35 -0400, Marco Leon wrote:

They will yell at
you for re-sequencing yourself on your own.

To what "sequencing" do you refer? At the class Ds with which I'm
familiar, "sequencing" is limited to "cleared to land", "#2 cleared to
land", etc. Sequencing doesn't typically start until that point.

Also, keep in mind (though I'm sure you know this) that sequencing is not
separation.

[...]
while keeping a close eye on the
suspect traffic and kindly querying the controller with "do you want me
in the front or behind that traffic?"

Can't keep a close eye if you're in front (at least in my airplane) grin.

- Andrew