Jumbo Tanker Accident

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:50:58 -0700, "Gatt"
wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

DOI: 6/18/2005
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT

That's pushing it for a Mustang, isn't it? Licensed in 2005?

Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE


Isn't the DOI referencing the latest privelege or rating issued? So
he could have been private for 20 years and just now picked up his
AMEL-IA.

Peter Clark wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:50:58 -0700, "Gatt"
wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

DOI: 6/18/2005
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT

That's pushing it for a Mustang, isn't it? Licensed in 2005?

Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE


Isn't the DOI referencing the latest privelege or rating issued? So
he could have been private for 20 years and just now picked up his
AMEL-IA.

Not only that if a pilot gets a new certificate for any reason, like just
wanting one of the plastic ones, the date will be reset.

Also keep in mind that the guys who flew these back in the 40's while
getting shot at usually had less than 2 years experience flying.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...

Also keep in mind that the guys who flew these back in the 40's while
getting shot at usually had less than 2 years experience flying.

True. But most of that flying time was training in a phased and regimented
course on a full-time basis. In other words, they were -full time- 90 day
wonders.

A civilian pilot can get his complex, high performance and taildragger
ratings at his leisure and without as much persistence and currency as
somebody who had a full-time flight instruction every day for three months.
In addition, the 90-day wonders who flew Mustangs back in the day were the
ones who weren't washed out first. They couldn't just lay out a few
thousand dollars and buy themselves a checkout in a P-51. If they weren't
skilled and better-than-average pilots by the time they got near a Mustang,
they'd have never flown one.

-c

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:57:47 -0700, Richard Riley
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:53:00 -0700, "Gatt"
wrote:


"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...

Also keep in mind that the guys who flew these back in the 40's while
getting shot at usually had less than 2 years experience flying.

True. But most of that flying time was training in a phased and regimented
course on a full-time basis. In other words, they were -full time- 90 day
wonders.

A civilian pilot can get his complex, high performance and taildragger
ratings at his leisure and without as much persistence and currency as
somebody who had a full-time flight instruction every day for three months.
In addition, the 90-day wonders who flew Mustangs back in the day were the
ones who weren't washed out first. They couldn't just lay out a few
thousand dollars and buy themselves a checkout in a P-51. If they weren't
skilled and better-than-average pilots by the time they got near a Mustang,
they'd have never flown one.

And I've read (but cannot verify) that more WW2 fighters and pilots
were lost in accidents than in combat. So even the full time
non-wash-out 90 day wonders had their own bad days.

One a day in Tampa Bay!

Think of it this way. Currently the primary training is done
contract. They are expected to earn the PPL in 50 hours if I read
correctly.

Richard Riley wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 03:31:48 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:


And I've read (but cannot verify) that more WW2 fighters and pilots
were lost in accidents than in combat. So even the full time
non-wash-out 90 day wonders had their own bad days.

One a day in Tampa Bay!

Think of it this way. Currently the primary training is done
contract. They are expected to earn the PPL in 50 hours if I read
correctly.

IIRC the national average for ordinary, walk in off the streets ab
initio civilian pilot gets his PPL in about 62 hrs. So 50 for an
intelligent, motivated, young student who's doing nothing but is
certainly possible.

It almost always takes less total hours to learn something if you
are in "class" 8 hours a day, every day as oppossed to 1 or 2 hours
once a week or so.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:04:59 GMT, wrote:


It almost always takes less total hours to learn something if you
are in "class" 8 hours a day, every day as oppossed to 1 or 2 hours
once a week or so.

I flew twice a week and studied hard, with some multi-week weather and
vacation breaks. My check ride was my 47th and 48th total hours
towards my PPL, and I switched from Warriors to a Sundowner @ 20 hrs.
TT. I "taught" my CFI to fly the Sundowner after digesting the POH
and developing checklists and V-speed sheets.

I'm sure a PP-ASEL would go even faster for a young,
studious,"all-day" student.

"Richard Riley" wrote:


And I've read (but cannot verify) that more WW2 fighters and pilots
were lost in accidents than in combat.

A veteran of the battles of Midway and Guadalcanal told me the same thing,
and the difference in numbers wasn't small, either.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

Peter

I was one of those WWII guys that ended up in a P-51. First got about
10-12 back seat landings in a T-6. Then checked out in the P-40. Then
went to a 51 Squadron and got a briefing from an old head on engine
operation and takeoff and landing speeds and then flew the bird. Don't
remember many accidents on check out in 51. Certainly not like the
original B-26 (one a day in Tampa bay).

Big John
************************************************** ****


On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:23:44 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

Peter Clark wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:50:58 -0700, "Gatt"
wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

DOI: 6/18/2005
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT

That's pushing it for a Mustang, isn't it? Licensed in 2005?

Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE


Isn't the DOI referencing the latest privelege or rating issued? So
he could have been private for 20 years and just now picked up his
AMEL-IA.

Not only that if a pilot gets a new certificate for any reason, like just
wanting one of the plastic ones, the date will be reset.

Also keep in mind that the guys who flew these back in the 40's while
getting shot at usually had less than 2 years experience flying.

Here is an extract from the NTSB report on the P-51 accident.
************************************************** ***********

According to preliminary information provided by Camarillo Air Traffic
Control Tower personnel, the airplane, with the private pilot and a
flight instructor on board, flew into the airport and made a full stop
landing. The flight instructor exited the airplane after informing the
tower that the pilot would be performing his first solo flight in the
airplane. The airplane departed on runway 26, remained in the traffic
pattern and returned for a landing on runway 26. Two controllers
observed the airplane touch down and then become airborne again. At
that point, it appeared to them that the pilot initiated a go around,
and the airplane immediately rolled left and impacted the ground
beside the runway in an inverted position.

************************************************** **************

This describes a classic torque roll with high power, low airspeed and
not leading with enought right rudder to counter the torque

I saw several of these first hand dring my years flying the P-51. We
ended up teaching new checkouts to only use 30 or so inches on go
around (at least until they got some airspeed back up and had enough
rudder to hold the torque).

A bloody shame to lose both the pilot and aircraft.

Big John
*************************************************



On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 21:09:19 -0500, Big John
wrote:

Peter

I was one of those WWII guys that ended up in a P-51. First got about
10-12 back seat landings in a T-6. Then checked out in the P-40. Then
went to a 51 Squadron and got a briefing from an old head on engine
operation and takeoff and landing speeds and then flew the bird. Don't
remember many accidents on check out in 51. Certainly not like the
original B-26 (one a day in Tampa bay).

Big John
************************************************* *****


On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:23:44 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

Peter Clark wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:50:58 -0700, "Gatt"
wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

DOI: 6/18/2005
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT

That's pushing it for a Mustang, isn't it? Licensed in 2005?

Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE


Isn't the DOI referencing the latest privelege or rating issued? So
he could have been private for 20 years and just now picked up his
AMEL-IA.

Not only that if a pilot gets a new certificate for any reason, like just
wanting one of the plastic ones, the date will be reset.

Also keep in mind that the guys who flew these back in the 40's while
getting shot at usually had less than 2 years experience flying.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:13:58 -0500, Big John
wrote in :


This describes a classic torque roll with high power, low airspeed and
not leading with enought right rudder to counter the torque

I saw several of these first hand dring my years flying the P-51. We
ended up teaching new checkouts to only use 30 or so inches on go
around (at least until they got some airspeed back up and had enough
rudder to hold the torque).

A bloody shame to lose both the pilot and aircraft.

Thanks for the firsthand information.

So it would appear that either the throttle malfunctioned, the PIC
failed to follow his training, or his instructor failed to adequately
train his student. Have you any idea if the 30" MP limit officially
became part of the check-out syllabus (presuming one exists)?

Has the name of the CFI been disclosed yet? It's a damn tragic shame
regardless of the cause. At least the aircraft can probably be
rebuilt.

Updated story with photo he
http://venturacountystar.com/news/20...o-plane-crash/

http://www.theacorn.com/news/2007/07..._page/004.html
McKittrick was senior vice president of capital markets for
Countrywide Home Loans and for the past two years had been an
assistant football coach for freshmen and sophomores at Oaks
Christian High School.

Hethcock said Michele McKittrick, a personal trainer, runs a
physical education program for middle school students and is also
the conditioning coach for a number of the high school's athletic
teams.

The McKittrick Fitness Center, the school's weight and exercise
room, is named after the family.


http://venturacountystar.com/news/20...is-identified/
McKittrick's wife, Michele, teaches physical fitness at the
school. He also has a son and a daughter who are students there.

Posted by fishnpilot on July 17, 2007 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest
removal)

you are speaking out of turn here, ecarson, with out knowing all
the facts. this pilot had the best instructor a p51 pilot could
have, it takes a special person to be able to even give
instruction in these difficult to fly and sensitive warbirds. he
has at least 30 yrs experience with p51's. he was being thoughtful
and considerate of the public (on the ground) as you mentioned as
well. Camarillo is relatively sparse and has lots of room for
training. furthermore, he (Mckittrick) was given orders to stay in
the pattern and do one circuit to a full stop. no leaving the
pattern. the student had over 37 hrs dual instruction (in this
plane!) at this point and had not shown any bad tendancies. the
problem is, you cannot always predict what a students response
with be to any mistake he may make. you can only hope they use
good common sense as well as their acquired skills to correct it.
sometimes it leads to an unfortunate event such as this, and
unless you know exactly what happened you should not be so quick
to criticise. i have had similar experiences with students in
specilized aircraft and thousands of dual given with a tally of
more 10,000hrs in odd types or non-conventional planes. this
instructor was actually being very cautious in this instance and
knows the plane and pilot well.

Apparently Howie Keefe is based in Camarillo:
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.co..._Air_Racer.htm


Pilot photo he http://www.mtexpress.com/index2.php?ID=2005116115
McKittrick, 42, a bond trader, an experienced pilot in other
single- and twin-engine aircraft, had purchased the Mustang five
months ago with the intention of entering next year's Reno Air
Races in the high-speed, unlimited aircraft class, according to a
close Ketchum friend of 14 years and fellow P-51 owner-pilot, Bill
Rheinschild.

Rheinschild told the Mountain Express that based on accounts of
witnesses at Camarillo Airport north of Los Angeles, McKittrick
was flying the Mustang¾nicknamed "Lou IV"¾solo for the first time
since taking some 50 hours of dual instruction in the modified,
two-seat former Air Force fighter.

His unidentified instructor had cleared McKittrick for takeoffs
and landings and flying in the airport pattern.

"On landing," Rheinschild said, McKittrick "made a perfect
approach but ballooned (bounced) when his tail wheel touched down
too early."

He said McKittrick "added too much power" on the 1,850-horsepower
Rolls Royce Merlin engine to neutralize the porpoising, which
caused the aircraft to "torque roll." The high-speed aircraft
whipped over into an inverted attitude and immediately crashed,
killing McKittrick instantly. There was no fire.

"Whenever you get into a situation like that," Rheinschild
explained, "it's every aviator's reaction to give it power. But
you can't do it in this kind of airplane."

Rheinschild said McKittrick has owned a single-engine Beech
Bonanza, a twin-engine Beech KingAir C-90 and a World War II T-6
trainer, and had contracted for construction of a Hawker Sea Fury
with complete parts he'd bought.

McKittrick, whose fulltime residence is in Thousand Oaks, Calif.,
had about 1,500 hours of flying experience, Rheinschild said.
Rheinschild is president of a southern California home-building
corporation, but lives in the valley.

The P-51 (later the F-51) was the first U.S. fighter capable of
accompanying World War II heavy bomber raids deep into Europe to
ward off German fighters. The Mustang also was a superb ground
attack aircraft in support of ground troops. McKittrick's Mustang
had the telltale black-and-white wing stripes painted on aircraft
involved in the D-Day Normandy invasion.

He is survived by his wife, Michele, and two children.

A memorial service will be held at 10 a.m. Friday at the Calvary
Christian Church, Westlake, Calif., with a reception following at
Sherwood Country Club in Thousand Oaks.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The comments below are from the readers of mtexpress.com and in no
way represent the views of Express Publishing Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Laura Wells – Reno, Nevada 07/20/07 - 18:22Hi Bill. this is Laura
(formerly Buehn, now Wells, who had the Grumman Albatrosses in
Carson). I am so sorry about the loss of your friend John. I
helped on the ramp at Pylon Racing School this year, and spoke to
him several times. What a nice, polite man he was. He was so
thankful for any help at PRS. He spoke about how excited he was
about the prospect of racing next year. My thoughts are with all
his family and friends. Sincerely, Laura Wells


Pre-mishap photo and discussion he
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...tml#post263019

Discussion:
http://ipilot.com/forum/message.aspx?pid=187405
This gentlemen was already a pilot, and had recently purchased this
plane. He had roughly 30 hrs of flight time in the P-51 aircraft with
an instructor, and the instructor was at the airport and witnessed the
accident...

http://ipilot.com/forum/message.aspx?pid=187452
Doing a search of the FAA database, there are only 5 registerd TF-51s
(two seat variants)and this one wasn't one of them. A check of the N
number of this plane revealed it registered as at F-51D, perhaps just
a registration inaccuracy.