The ethanol scam

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:14:08 -0500, "Maxwell" wrote:

"Whata Fool" wrote in message
.. .
Regardless, ethanol production is needed, and the more the
better.

What do you consider to be the "pros" of ethanol?

For the US, it reduces oil imports, billions of gallons per
year.

It will provide the means to do away with farm subsidies,
if only congress has the brains to make it happen.

It is much cleaner burning, and with the engine tuned for it,
it has more power, check Indy 500 for details.

It is carbon neutral, as is all animal and human emissions of
CO2.

The Indy use alcohol because of gasoline fire, but check that
out too.

When oil becomes too expensive and in short supply, ethanol
is one of the biofuels that is easy to make.


There is nothing bad about ethanol, although because it has
an oxygen atom in the molecule, it needs less air, so a bigger tank may
be needed for the same miles per tank.
(Miles Per Gallon is not a criteria for different fuels,
Miles Per Dollar is the important factor).

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:12:30 -0900, Whata Fool wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:14:08 -0500, "Maxwell" wrote:

"Whata Fool" wrote in message
. ..
Regardless, ethanol production is needed, and the more the
better.

What do you consider to be the "pros" of ethanol?

For the US, it reduces oil imports, billions of gallons per
year.
First, when compared to gas none of my statements are negative against
alcohol.

It might, not does and even pushing the implementation to the limits
predictions are it will only be able to take care of the increased
demand for fuels over time.

It will provide the means to do away with farm subsidies,
if only congress has the brains to make it happen.

It might

It is much cleaner burning, and with the engine tuned for it,
it has more power, check Indy 500 for details.

Cleaner burning, yes. More power, not a chance. Alcohol only contains
60 of the energy of gas. In Indy they get more power by burning more.
A lot more and under more pressure. They are also running very
expensive engines at very high RPM and expected to last for one race.


It is carbon neutral, as is all animal and human emissions of
CO2.

It could be if the growing chain also used it rather than fossil
fuels.


The Indy use alcohol because of gasoline fire, but check that
out too.

When oil becomes too expensive and in short supply, ethanol
is one of the biofuels that is easy to make.

And expensive although the price is currently hidden in subsidies
rather than showing up at the pump.



There is nothing bad about ethanol, although because it has
an oxygen atom in the molecule, it needs less air, so a bigger tank may
be needed for the same miles per tank.
(Miles Per Gallon is not a criteria for different fuels,
Miles Per Dollar is the important factor).

Time we get done alcohol will be at least as expensive as the highest
price we've seen for gas so far.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

Whata Fool wrote:

It is much cleaner burning, and with the engine tuned for it,
it has more power, check Indy 500 for details.

Cleaner burning, yes. More power, not a chance. Alcohol only contains
60 of the energy of gas. In Indy they get more power by burning more.
A lot more and under more pressure.

And also because an engine runs more efficiently on ethanol if designed properly
to use it.

Ethanol may only have 60% of the thermal energy of gasoline but but the extra
efficiency makes up for about half of that difference.

Graham

Eeyore wrote in
:



"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

Whata Fool wrote:

It is much cleaner burning, and with the engine tuned for
it,
it has more power, check Indy 500 for details.

Cleaner burning, yes. More power, not a chance. Alcohol only contains
60 of the energy of gas. In Indy they get more power by burning
more. A lot more and under more pressure.

And also because an engine runs more efficiently on ethanol if
designed properly to use it.

Ethanol may only have 60% of the thermal energy of gasoline but but
the extra efficiency makes up for about half of that difference.


Good grief. what a fjukwit.




Graham

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

Time we get done alcohol will be at least as expensive as the highest
price we've seen for gas so far.

I'm sure it'll never be any cheaper ! That's not what it's about.

Graham

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:32:47 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:12:30 -0900, Whata Fool wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:14:08 -0500, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Whata Fool" wrote in message
...
Regardless, ethanol production is needed, and the more the
better.

What do you consider to be the "pros" of ethanol?

For the US, it reduces oil imports, billions of gallons per
year.

First, when compared to gas none of my statements are negative against
alcohol.

There is nothing wrong with ethanol, it is a great
opportunity for farmers and small business.

It might, not does and even pushing the implementation to the limits
predictions are it will only be able to take care of the increased
demand for fuels over time.

It will provide the means to do away with farm subsidies,
if only congress has the brains to make it happen.

It might

It is much cleaner burning, and with the engine tuned for it,
it has more power, check Indy 500 for details.

Cleaner burning, yes. More power, not a chance. Alcohol only contains
60 of the energy of gas. In Indy they get more power by burning more.

Not true, they may not get the miles per gallon, but during
the race I heard something about _smaller_ tanks.
Ethanol has more like 80 percent the energy of gasoline, but
cars on the road are detuned to use low octane unleaded.

A lot more and under more pressure. They are also running very
expensive engines at very high RPM and expected to last for one race.

I don't think superchargers are allowed, and all cars use
the same engine. Again, it is not the miles per gallon, or how
much energy per gallon, the important thing is more miles per dollar.

It is carbon neutral, as is all animal and human emissions of
CO2.

It could be if the growing chain also used it rather than fossil
fuels.

The only reason to use fossil fuels is the availability,
most farm machinery is diesel.

The Indy use alcohol because of gasoline fire, but check that
out too.

When oil becomes too expensive and in short supply, ethanol
is one of the biofuels that is easy to make.

And expensive although the price is currently hidden in subsidies
rather than showing up at the pump.

Ethanol made from sugar or other crops should be cheaper
than gasoline, and it must be, that is why there is an import tax.

There is nothing bad about ethanol, although because it has
an oxygen atom in the molecule, it needs less air, so a bigger tank may
be needed for the same miles per tank.
(Miles Per Gallon is not a criteria for different fuels,
Miles Per Dollar is the important factor).

Time we get done alcohol will be at least as expensive as the highest
price we've seen for gas so far.

It will get cheaper relatively as time passes, ethanol can
be made out of almost any hydrocarbon (organic).

Whata Fool wrote:

it [ethanol] has more power

Sorry to disappoint you , that simply isn't true.

An engine optimally designed to burn ethanol (usually with a turbo) can indeed
produce more horsepower on ethanol than it does running on gasoline but it does
that at the expense of burning more gallons of the ethanol.

What it does mean is that for a given power output the engine can be smaller if
you use ethanol as a fuel instead of gasoline. And that's why racers like it
since smaller = lighter = faster (or simply more horsepower from the same engine
size).

Graham

Eeyore wrote in
:



Whata Fool wrote:

it [ethanol] has more power

Sorry to disappoint you , that simply isn't true.

An engine optimally designed to burn ethanol (usually with a turbo)
can indeed produce more horsepower on ethanol than it does running on
gasoline but it does that at the expense of burning more gallons of
the ethanol.

What it does mean is that for a given power output the engine can be
smaller if you use ethanol as a fuel instead of gasoline. And that's
why racers like it since smaller = lighter = faster (or simply more
horsepower from the same engine size).



Whoosh.


Bertie

Graham