The ethanol scam

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 18:28:14 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:04:46 -0600, RomeoMike
wrote:



Jay Honeck wrote:


"Overall (farming, distillation), it takes 129,600 BTU to produce a
gallon of EtOH (ethanol), but the energy value of a gallon of EtOH is
only 76,000 BTU. In SI units [conversions in footnote 3]: it takes
45.7 MJ to produce a kilogram of EtOH, but the energy value of that
kilogram of EtOH is 26.8 MJ."

Does anyone know how much energy it takes to pump crude out of the
ground, ship it to a refinery, and the refine it to make a gallon of
gas? I don't, just asking for a comparison.

It's surprisingly inefficient, but using the same stuff for power
makes it relatively inexpensive.
I looked it up a while back and as I recall it was "cost of producing
alcohol compared to processing crude oil into gas" The biggest problem
I found is there is so much conflicting information out there that it
takes time (a lot of it) to filter out what is and is not both correct
and up-to-date. Even where studies are undertaken you really need to
know the criteria under which the studies were conducted.

*Probably* one of the least expensive fuels is hydrogen produced by
gasification of coal, but that process is not clean and produces a
tremendous amount of CO2 as a byproduct. OTOH the byproducts and be
recovered and sold while the CO2 can be sequestered.

Interesting data point:

"ChevronTexaco has installed a solar photovoltaic facility called
Soalrmine to help power oil-field operations near Bakersfield, Calif.
The grid-tie project comprises 4800 flexible, current-producing solar
panels, each about 1.3 feet wide by 18 feet long, mounted on metal
frames.

"At 500 kW, Solarrmine is one of the largest photovoltaic
installations in the U.S. and the largest array of flexible,
amorphous-silicon solar technology in the world. Solarmine covers six
acres, enabling it to take advantage of Uni-Solar's
amorphous-manufacturing economies of scale. (ChevronTexaco owns 20% of
Uni-Solar's parent company, ECD.) "

That's from an article I wrote in 2004. I don't know the current
status.

Don

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:11:54 -0700, Don Tuite
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 18:28:14 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:04:46 -0600, RomeoMike
wrote:



Jay Honeck wrote:


"Overall (farming, distillation), it takes 129,600 BTU to produce a
gallon of EtOH (ethanol), but the energy value of a gallon of EtOH is
only 76,000 BTU. In SI units [conversions in footnote 3]: it takes
45.7 MJ to produce a kilogram of EtOH, but the energy value of that
kilogram of EtOH is 26.8 MJ."

Does anyone know how much energy it takes to pump crude out of the
ground, ship it to a refinery, and the refine it to make a gallon of
gas? I don't, just asking for a comparison.

It's surprisingly inefficient, but using the same stuff for power
makes it relatively inexpensive.
I looked it up a while back and as I recall it was "cost of producing
alcohol compared to processing crude oil into gas" The biggest problem
I found is there is so much conflicting information out there that it
takes time (a lot of it) to filter out what is and is not both correct
and up-to-date. Even where studies are undertaken you really need to
know the criteria under which the studies were conducted.

*Probably* one of the least expensive fuels is hydrogen produced by
gasification of coal, but that process is not clean and produces a
tremendous amount of CO2 as a byproduct. OTOH the byproducts and be
recovered and sold while the CO2 can be sequestered.

Interesting data point:

"ChevronTexaco has installed a solar photovoltaic facility called
Soalrmine to help power oil-field operations near Bakersfield, Calif.
The grid-tie project comprises 4800 flexible, current-producing solar
panels, each about 1.3 feet wide by 18 feet long, mounted on metal
frames.

"At 500 kW, Solarrmine is one of the largest photovoltaic
installations in the U.S. and the largest array of flexible,
amorphous-silicon solar technology in the world. Solarmine covers six

Amorphous-Silicon in what configuration? Deposition on a substrate or
polycrystalline?

Hemlock Semiconductor Corporation (HSC), affectionately known around
here as Hemi Semi...just finished up a major expansion program (they
were the world's largest producer of polycrystalline Silicon well
before that expansion) announced a one Billion Dollar expansion that
should again double the plant's capacity.

The problem for us using solar (active and passive) up here, contrary
to many claims made by the state and tourist bureau, is lack of sun
coupled low cost electricity. With electricity costing about 8 cents
per KWH or 10 cents with all surcharges, being 43.37N, in a cloudy
area, and no subsidy we aren't even on the pay-back charts. California
OTOH with peak charges of just shy of 40 cents per KWH and a subsidy
of near 50% last I heard, has a reasonable payback time. Up here an
installation would run about twice the cost of one in California and
we receive no subsidy. That makes the $30,000 to $50,000 for an
installation just a tad steep.

acres, enabling it to take advantage of Uni-Solar's
amorphous-manufacturing economies of scale. (ChevronTexaco owns 20% of
Uni-Solar's parent company, ECD.) "

That's from an article I wrote in 2004. I don't know the current
status.

Don