Jumbo Tanker Accident

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:17:30 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote in
:


What puzzles me is why, when the PIC finds that he is unable to
control the torque, he doesn't reduce the power? Or is the power
application so swift that there isn't time to react to the torque
roll?

Commercial pilots are taught to apply power smoothly (slowly), it
would seem that there would be time to do that in this sort of
situation. Am I wrong?

No, you're right, and that is exactly how it should be done; quickly but
extremely smoothly, with adequate rudder and aileron applied together.
As for what's "puzzling you"; in these airplanes you don't get the
luxury of finding out you can't control the torque on a go-around. By
that time it's way too late, and reducing the power may not be an option
due to the flight configuration and/or circumstances.

You mean, if you see that the rudder is against the stop, and you're
starting to roll further to the right, you can't reduce the power to
counter the torque induced roll? What would happen? You'd at least
land/crash on the mains instead of the canopy, wouldn't you?

You get one shot in these airplanes to do it right; just one.

To do it right, perhaps. But if you're out of control, you still have
some options other than letting the torque flip you over, don't you?
Or is there too much inertia with that big prop to expect a throttle
reduction to reduce torque fast enough to prevent it from rolling you
inverted?

The way to control torque in the Mustang is to know exactly the conditions
that will cause the issue and take the proper steps to prevent it from
happening.
Dudley Henriques

Okay. But once the PIC realizes that s/he's going to "scratch the
paint," the PIC's mind set should be to minimize the potential injury.
Wouldn't cartwheeling be preferable to landing on your head?

What is approach speed for a P-51 anyway?

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:17:30 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote in
:

What puzzles me is why, when the PIC finds that he is unable to
control the torque, he doesn't reduce the power? Or is the power
application so swift that there isn't time to react to the torque
roll?

Commercial pilots are taught to apply power smoothly (slowly), it
would seem that there would be time to do that in this sort of
situation. Am I wrong?

No, you're right, and that is exactly how it should be done; quickly but
extremely smoothly, with adequate rudder and aileron applied together.
As for what's "puzzling you"; in these airplanes you don't get the
luxury of finding out you can't control the torque on a go-around. By
that time it's way too late, and reducing the power may not be an option
due to the flight configuration and/or circumstances.

You mean, if you see that the rudder is against the stop, and you're
starting to roll further to the right, you can't reduce the power to
counter the torque induced roll? What would happen? You'd at least
land/crash on the mains instead of the canopy, wouldn't you?

You get one shot in these airplanes to do it right; just one.

To do it right, perhaps. But if you're out of control, you still have
some options other than letting the torque flip you over, don't you?
Or is there too much inertia with that big prop to expect a throttle
reduction to reduce torque fast enough to prevent it from rolling you
inverted?

The way to control torque in the Mustang is to know exactly the conditions
that will cause the issue and take the proper steps to prevent it from
happening.
Dudley Henriques

Okay. But once the PIC realizes that s/he's going to "scratch the
paint," the PIC's mind set should be to minimize the potential injury.
Wouldn't cartwheeling be preferable to landing on your head?

What is approach speed for a P-51 anyway?


No. First of all, the term "full rudder" as relates to a go-around needs
some amplification for you if you are talking P51's. (Actually all
airplanes but especially the Mustang)
What corrects torque is aileron NOT rudder as many pilots believe. You
can sit on the ramp in a Mustang and power will compress the left main
gear strut. If you try this at over 40 inches standing still in a 51, it
will jump the chocks..it has THAT much power! Torque correction is in
ROLL, not in yaw, and this requires right aileron.
Anytime the propeller disc is slanted to the relative wind (you are
moving)you have P Factor. Anytime the propeller disc is transitioning in
pitch you have gyroscopic precession. With power applied you have spiral
slipstream on the vertical tail surfaces.
ALL of these left turning forces are active on the 11'3" Hamilton
Standard propeller mounted on the nose of a P51.
If you bounce this airplane, you had too much forward stick in hand
through the touchdown and the tail was probably too high. In the 51,
this is a classic bounce scenario, usually won't happen unless you're
landing hot.
When an airplane like a 51 bounces on touchdown, you have to be quick
and you have to be SMOOTH on both the controls and the throttle. Ham
fist either or both and it can spoil your day.
You recover from the bounce exactly as I described in my prior post or
you take it around exactly as I described it in the same prior post.
You NEVER allow a Mustang to bounce through an unassisted decelleration
letting it go high on you in the bounce.
As for torque. In applying power during a bounce correction, you have to
consider torque by holding in enough right aileron to correct it; P
Factor in any condidion other than stable level flight where both sides
of the blade arc are at equal aoa, and most certainly gyroscopic
precession 90 degrees to any deflection of the propeller disc while in
pitch transit. As power is applied, you will also be dealing with
spiraling slipstream. You correct with perfectly blended right aileron
for the torque, right rudder for the GP, PF, and SS. It goes without
saying that with all this going on, you don't EVER....and I mean EVER
allow a P51 to bounce through a bad touchdown to the point where full
application of these controls can't handle the situation. If you find
yourself in this condition, you are about to crash and power reduction
at that point would most likely not prevent that crash and would most
likely simply alter the angle at which the Mustang impacts the ground.
To answer your question specifically; cutting the power would certainly
aid in stopping the forces acting on the airplane, but that scenario
would most certainly be coming way too late based on the fact that the
need to do it would have already put the airplane beyond recovery
parameters considering ALL factors.

You asked about approach speed for the Mustang;
At the GW I flew the airplane most of the time, I used 150 for a normal
pattern, turning base to final dropping it to 120; then over the fence
at about 115 decelerating on down into the flare.
Dudley Henriques