VOR approach SMO

No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.


Karl
Read and UNDERSTAND the chart



"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 23, 12:17 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
I see no problem with the weather 800/3 as you point out. Inside BEVEY
drive
down to 680 outside CULVE, and have 3 miles to descend 505 feet. Any jet
will do that all day long.

No, you misread the chart. It is not 3 miles from CULVE, its about 1/2
that. The distances you are looking at are *NOT* the distances to the
threshold, those are to the DME, on the other side of the field.

-Robert

On Jul 23, 2:12 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.

ATC certainly never offered that but I guess I never asked. They keep
you at 4,000 until about 3 miles outside of CULVE. Maybe for Burbank
traffic?? Remeber this is VERY busy airspace and ATC has very small
windows for you.

-Robert

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:06:20 -0700, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Jul 23, 2:12 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.

ATC certainly never offered that but I guess I never asked. They keep
you at 4,000 until about 3 miles outside of CULVE. Maybe for Burbank
traffic?? Remeber this is VERY busy airspace and ATC has very small
windows for you.

ATC is keeping you at 4K until 1.3 miles inside the FAF?

In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:

No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.

Maybe I'm just thick, but that's not how I read the chart.

After DARTS, you can descend to 2600. After BEVEY, you can descend to
1120. What happens after that depends on whether you can identify CULVE or
not. If you can identify CULVE, once you reach it, you can descend to 680.
Without CULVE, you have to stay at 1120 until you have the runway in sight.

Look at the plan view. There's a 863 tower at what looks like about 1/2
mile right of the FAC. I'm sure that's the controlling terrain for the
1120 MDA between BEVEY and CULVE.

To identify CULVE, you need one of two things: either DME in the aircraft,
or the tower has to be open AND you have to be in radar contact. It
doesn't explicitly say so on the chart, but I assume the tower has a BRITE
scope in the cab with CULVE marked on it and will call it for you on tower
frequency.

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as
steep as an ILS. It's certainly the kind of approach you need to brief
ahead of time and know what you're going to need to do before you get there.

Roy Smith wrote:
You're not thick, the Curator is.

In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:


No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.


Maybe I'm just thick, but that's not how I read the chart.

After DARTS, you can descend to 2600. After BEVEY, you can descend to
1120. What happens after that depends on whether you can identify CULVE or
not. If you can identify CULVE, once you reach it, you can descend to 680.
Without CULVE, you have to stay at 1120 until you have the runway in sight.

Look at the plan view. There's a 863 tower at what looks like about 1/2
mile right of the FAC. I'm sure that's the controlling terrain for the
1120 MDA between BEVEY and CULVE.

Actually, it is several very tall building in Century City. At 680 feet
out there you die.

To identify CULVE, you need one of two things: either DME in the aircraft,
or the tower has to be open AND you have to be in radar contact. It
doesn't explicitly say so on the chart, but I assume the tower has a BRITE
scope in the cab with CULVE marked on it and will call it for you on tower
frequency.

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as
steep as an ILS. It's certainly the kind of approach you need to brief
ahead of time and know what you're going to need to do before you get there.

In article ,
Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:

No.

You can be 6.7 miles out at 680/DME.

Maybe I'm just thick, but that's not how I read the chart.

After DARTS, you can descend to 2600. After BEVEY, you can descend to
1120. What happens after that depends on whether you can identify CULVE or
not. If you can identify CULVE, once you reach it, you can descend to 680.
Without CULVE, you have to stay at 1120 until you have the runway in sight.

That's my understanding as well -- the chart isn't particularly
ambiguous on this, either...


Look at the plan view. There's a 863 tower at what looks like about 1/2
mile right of the FAC. I'm sure that's the controlling terrain for the
1120 MDA between BEVEY and CULVE.

Indeed. Having briefly worked in the building that that obstruction
represents, I hope there aren't too many pilots out there in IMC
dropping below 1120 before they're at least abeam that point...

Hamish

In article
,
Hamish Reid wrote:

Indeed. Having briefly worked in the building that that obstruction
represents, I hope there aren't too many pilots out there in IMC
dropping below 1120 before they're at least abeam that point...

There's nothing that makes you appreciate the importance of the MDA like
being part of the terrain :-)

On Jul 23, 3:15 pm, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as
steep as an ILS.

Maybe easy in a 172 but not in my Mooney. With gear and flaps out and
power at idle I don't think I can do 885 ft/min without a lot of
slipping. Even if I could there is still the issue of going from 90
knots approach speed down to 70 knots threshold crossing speed. This
is why I was 3/4 down the runway. I'm still wondering how the
GulfStream did that.

-Robert

In article . com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

On Jul 23, 3:15 pm, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as
steep as an ILS.

Maybe easy in a 172 but not in my Mooney. With gear and flaps out and
power at idle I don't think I can do 885 ft/min without a lot of
slipping. Even if I could there is still the issue of going from 90
knots approach speed down to 70 knots threshold crossing speed. This
is why I was 3/4 down the runway. I'm still wondering how the
GulfStream did that.

I've never flown a Mooney, so I can't speak for what it can or can't do.

The charted procedure only promises that if you fly the specified course
and altitudes, it'll keep you from hitting any terrain. There's nothing
that promises that any particular aircraft has the required performance to
land straight-in (or any other way, for that matter) out of any particular
approach. Figuring that stuff out is all part of pre-flight planning.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:22:27 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

In article . com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

On Jul 23, 3:15 pm, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're 945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers, you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885 ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice as
steep as an ILS.

Maybe easy in a 172 but not in my Mooney. With gear and flaps out and
power at idle I don't think I can do 885 ft/min without a lot of
slipping. Even if I could there is still the issue of going from 90
knots approach speed down to 70 knots threshold crossing speed. This
is why I was 3/4 down the runway. I'm still wondering how the
GulfStream did that.

I've never flown a Mooney, so I can't speak for what it can or can't do.

The charted procedure only promises that if you fly the specified course
and altitudes, it'll keep you from hitting any terrain. There's nothing
that promises that any particular aircraft has the required performance to
land straight-in (or any other way, for that matter) out of any particular
approach. Figuring that stuff out is all part of pre-flight planning.

Come on guys, this IS a circling approach. If you feel stuffed in,
you can always circle southeast, remain within 1 1/4 miles of the
approach end of 21, and descend when appropriate for the pavement.