VOR approach SMO

In article . com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

On Jul 23, 6:22 pm, Roy Smith wrote:
In article . com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:





On Jul 23, 3:15 pm, Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,

CULVE is 1.6 nm from the threshold. If you cross it at 1120, you're
945
feet AGL (referenced to the runway surface). So, to hit the numbers,
you
need to keep a 590 ft/nm descent gradient from CULVE to the runway.
Looking at it another way, at 90 kts and no wind, you need an 885
ft/min
descent rate. That's fast, but not outrageously so. It's about twice
as
steep as an ILS.

Maybe easy in a 172 but not in my Mooney. With gear and flaps out and
power at idle I don't think I can do 885 ft/min without a lot of
slipping. Even if I could there is still the issue of going from 90
knots approach speed down to 70 knots threshold crossing speed. This
is why I was 3/4 down the runway. I'm still wondering how the
GulfStream did that.

I've never flown a Mooney, so I can't speak for what it can or can't do.

The charted procedure only promises that if you fly the specified course
and altitudes, it'll keep you from hitting any terrain. There's nothing
that promises that any particular aircraft has the required performance to
land straight-in (or any other way, for that matter) out of any particular
approach. Figuring that stuff out is all part of pre-flight planning.

What is your point? That the GulfStream shouldn't have been able to
touch down on the numbers or should have? You've lost me.

-Robert

My point is that people should do pre-flight planning and not wait until
three quarters of the the runway is behind them to start thinking about
whether they can land on what's left.

On Jul 23, 7:23 pm, Roy Smith wrote:
In article . com,

My point is that people should do pre-flight planning and not wait until
three quarters of the the runway is behind them to start thinking about
whether they can land on what's left.- Hide quoted text -

No, ****, but what are you refering to? Who was "start thinking about
whether they can land on what's left"? Is that a reference to this
thread or a different thread? I don't recall anyone being concerned
that the runway was too short or that they couldn't land in the
available runway. This thread concerns an IFR approach and the
question of being able to hit the numbers from 1120 under 2 miles out.
Maybe its a newsreader issue???

-Robert

In article m,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

On Jul 23, 7:23 pm, Roy Smith wrote:
In article . com,

My point is that people should do pre-flight planning and not wait until
three quarters of the the runway is behind them to start thinking about
whether they can land on what's left.- Hide quoted text -

No, ****, but what are you refering to?

Your original statement that you "touched down about 3/4 down the runway".
That set warning bells off in my head. Were you planning on touching down
that far down the runway, or did you just come in too high and fast and
that's when you managed to stop flying? Did you have a plan for when you
were going to decide there wasn't enough runway left and go around?

You seemed surprised that the Gulfsteam driver behind you managed to land
on the beginning of the runway. I'm guessing he had the approach planned
out far in advance and knew what descent rates he would need and what
configuration it would take to get that. And I'm guessing you didn't,
which is why you ended up touching down 3/4 of the way down the runway.

The flying club I used to belong to ran three airplanes off ends of runways
in the 10 years or so I was a member (one was totalled, fortunately nobody
was hurt in any of them). All three could have been avoided by pilots
recognizing that things were not working out and going around for another
try. So I'm kind of sensitive to things like that.

On Jul 24, 10:00 am, Roy Smith wrote:

Your original statement that you "touched down about 3/4 down the runway".
That set warning bells off in my head. Were you planning on touching down
that far down the runway,

Pretty much that's what I expected would happen.

or did you just come in too high and fast and
that's when you managed to stop flying?

Of course I came in high and fast. That's really the point of this
thread, that the approach requires you to be high and fast (my minimum
IFR approach speed is 90 knots) and of course I was 1120 about 2 miles
from the end of the runway as required by the approach.

You seemed surprised that the Gulfsteam driver behind you managed to land
on the beginning of the runway.

And I'm still surprised.

I'm guessing he had the approach planned
out far in advance and knew what descent rates he would need and what
configuration it would take to get that.

You keep referring planning. I'm not sure what planning you are
referring to in this context. The fact is that the GulfStream probably
had to have a good 1300 ft/min decent rate (assuming he flew the
approach perfectly). I'm surprised a GulfStream can do that because a
Mooney certainly cannot. I had gear and flaps out with power at idle
and couldn't do anywhere near that.

The point is that is it almost certain that the GulfStream was
familiar with the approach and decided to drop down early. My guess is
that a lot of the jets flying into SMO during low overcast are
dropping down to the MDA before CULVE just because they know its the
only way for them to hit the numbers.


And I'm guessing you didn't,
which is why you ended up touching down 3/4 of the way down the runway.

Well, guesses are what you pay for them.

-Robert, CFII

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ps.com...

You keep referring planning. I'm not sure what planning you are
referring to in this context. The fact is that the GulfStream probably
had to have a good 1300 ft/min decent rate (assuming he flew the
approach perfectly). I'm surprised a GulfStream can do that because a
Mooney certainly cannot. I had gear and flaps out with power at idle
and couldn't do anywhere near that.

The point is that is it almost certain that the GulfStream was
familiar with the approach and decided to drop down early. My guess is
that a lot of the jets flying into SMO during low overcast are
dropping down to the MDA before CULVE just because they know its the
only way for them to hit the numbers.


Or perhaps his spoilers were working? Does your Mooney have them?

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Of course I came in high and fast. That's really the point of this
thread, that the approach requires you to be high and fast (my minimum
IFR approach speed is 90 knots) and of course I was 1120 about 2 miles
from the end of the runway as required by the approach.

What's the rationale for the minimum IFR approach speed of 90 knots? A
slower approach speed will get you the required descent angle.

Try flying approaches at different speeds in VMC and see what you get.

DB