Cirrus in LSA as of this morning. But not with a new design

Jim Logajan wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
Seriously though - which parts are you saying they stole? The high-
wing STOL concept itself? Use of pulled rivets? Or the ugly boxy
shape?

Sure they modified it somewhat. But come on, for all intents the same
damn plane.

If they are both the same plane, then they should fly the same way.
Yet both manufacturers explicitly claim otherwise in their specs. I
don't see how they can both be the same "for all intents" and yet
different at the same time.

ICP made some changes to the wing. Many will say they improved the aircraft
and I'm not going to argue that because they may have. That doesn't disprove
that it looks like they made their modifications while they had a copy of
the 701 plans sitting there in front of them.



There appears to be no question (in my mind) that the fuselage shape
(and its internal structure?) and design of the landing gear appear
to be have been taken/stolen from the 701.


That's good otherwise I would have been concerned about the outcome of the
vision portion of your next medical.

On the other hand, one can buy a ready-to-fly S-LSA Savannah but not a
CH-701, as far as I know. ICP has made some good business decisions
on the Savannah while Zenith appears to have done little to improve
the 701 kit for years - until the Savannah came out.

Check out the new AMD Patriot that was announced at OSH. It is the next
generation 701. Please note though that now kit or plans were announced for
it. That's probably because of the way the 701 plans were copied.

I don't know when the Savannah came out. But the 2001 increase in GW was a
pretty significant improvement and Zenith has continued to increase the
quality of thier kits since I've began dealing with them in 2002. Leet me
ask you this. If Piper hadn't improved the wing on the Cherokee would that
have given Cessna the right to copy it and put a better wing on it?




This all relates to Denny's point: the plane has to be reasonably
priced (he set $45k) and ready-to-fly. Nothing from Zenith (or AMD)
comes close to that price point. The Savannah is the closest I can
find to matching his requirements - but at $65k still ~50% too
pricey. The AMD Zodiac XL comes in at $80k.

Yes and the new Zenith Patriot LSA will be RTF at about $100K as well. That
ought to tell you something. How can one company produce an aircraft that
much cheaper than all the rest? You can't blame USA labor costs because some
of those $80K-$100K planes are coming out of places like the Czech Republic.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
On the other hand, one can buy a ready-to-fly S-LSA Savannah but not
a CH-701, as far as I know. ICP has made some good business decisions
on the Savannah while Zenith appears to have done little to improve
the 701 kit for years - until the Savannah came out.

Check out the new AMD Patriot that was announced at OSH. It is the
next generation 701. Please note though that now kit or plans were
announced for it. That's probably because of the way the 701 plans
were copied.

I've Googled for info on the Patriot and gone to AMD's web site and can't
find any formal mention of it. Nor any mention on any news sites covering
OSH. Closest I could find is a news item from 2005 on Heintz working on a
"CH 750" S-LSA model, which may be AMD's Patriot:

http://www.zenithair.com/news/ch750.html

I don't know when the Savannah came out. But the 2001 increase in GW
was a pretty significant improvement and Zenith has continued to
increase the quality of thier kits since I've began dealing with them
in 2002. Leet me ask you this. If Piper hadn't improved the wing on
the Cherokee would that have given Cessna the right to copy it and put
a better wing on it?

So long as no trademarks, patents, or copyrights are violated I don't
think there is any legal protection for designs per se. So if none of the
above apply, then the answer to your question is "yes." The ethical,
moral, and marketing consequences are, no doubt, sometimes less
charitable to such actions.

This all relates to Denny's point: the plane has to be reasonably
priced (he set $45k) and ready-to-fly. Nothing from Zenith (or AMD)
comes close to that price point. The Savannah is the closest I can
find to matching his requirements - but at $65k still ~50% too
pricey. The AMD Zodiac XL comes in at $80k.

Yes and the new Zenith Patriot LSA will be RTF at about $100K as well.
That ought to tell you something. How can one company produce an
aircraft that much cheaper than all the rest? You can't blame USA
labor costs because some of those $80K-$100K planes are coming out of
places like the Czech Republic.

I don't see $65k as being terribly cheaper than all the rest. The Jabiru
Calypso-SP is a RTF composite plane that starts at $70k and it is built
in Australia (I think). North American Sport Aviation sells the Savage
RTF starting at $54k (built in the U.S. I believe). And I believe the
EuroFox is available RTF starting around $60k.

Jim Logajan wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
On the other hand, one can buy a ready-to-fly S-LSA Savannah but not
a CH-701, as far as I know. ICP has made some good business
decisions on the Savannah while Zenith appears to have done little
to improve the 701 kit for years - until the Savannah came out.

Check out the new AMD Patriot that was announced at OSH. It is the
next generation 701. Please note though that now kit or plans were
announced for it. That's probably because of the way the 701 plans
were copied.

I've Googled for info on the Patriot and gone to AMD's web site and
can't find any formal mention of it. Nor any mention on any news
sites covering OSH. Closest I could find is a news item from 2005 on
Heintz working on a "CH 750" S-LSA model, which may be AMD's Patriot:

http://www.zenithair.com/news/ch750.html



Here's a link with a photo. http://mostlyflying.blogspot.com/


I don't know when the Savannah came out. But the 2001 increase in GW
was a pretty significant improvement and Zenith has continued to
increase the quality of thier kits since I've began dealing with them
in 2002. Leet me ask you this. If Piper hadn't improved the wing on
the Cherokee would that have given Cessna the right to copy it and
put a better wing on it?

So long as no trademarks, patents, or copyrights are violated I don't
think there is any legal protection for designs per se. So if none of
the above apply, then the answer to your question is "yes." The
ethical, moral, and marketing consequences are, no doubt, sometimes
less charitable to such actions.


The plans for the 701 are copyrighted. Before a copy of those plans go out
they buyer signs an agreement that they will not copy the plans and that
only one aircraft will be built. So either ICP broke that agreement and the
copyright that was on the plans or they used a bootleg copy of the plans.




This all relates to Denny's point: the plane has to be reasonably
priced (he set $45k) and ready-to-fly. Nothing from Zenith (or AMD)
comes close to that price point. The Savannah is the closest I can
find to matching his requirements - but at $65k still ~50% too
pricey. The AMD Zodiac XL comes in at $80k.

Yes and the new Zenith Patriot LSA will be RTF at about $100K as
well. That ought to tell you something. How can one company produce
an aircraft that much cheaper than all the rest? You can't blame USA
labor costs because some of those $80K-$100K planes are coming out of
places like the Czech Republic.

I don't see $65k as being terribly cheaper than all the rest. The
Jabiru Calypso-SP is a RTF composite plane that starts at $70k and it
is built in Australia (I think). North American Sport Aviation sells
the Savage RTF starting at $54k (built in the U.S. I believe). And I
believe the EuroFox is available RTF starting around $60k.

The Calypso starts the but I'd bet the majority that are sold are sold with
a a lot of the extras. Plus Jabiru are using an engine that they build
themselves so there is a little more room for profit.