Mustang Collision Oshkosh

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...


I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a
section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive
closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques


It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1.
That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe
stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed.

What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time?

Blueskies wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...

I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a
section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive
closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques


It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1.
That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe
stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed.

What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time?




2 planes are a section; 4 a flight.
Normally for jets, or as is the case for nose wheel airplanes generally,
you do a section landing with the wingman directly back but not stacked
down. You touchdown with lead and maintain position through the roll out.
For tail wheel airplanes this is a whole new ball game because of the
peripheral visibility cues and lack of visibility directly over the nose
through touchdown. This issue is especially present in Mustangs.
I have never advocated section landings in Mustangs for civilian pilots
for the above reasons.
It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote

It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall 51's
doing formation landings at OSH. They usually land with at least 200 feet
between them.

I can't figure why they felt the need to formation land, this time.

Regardless, condolences. A sad way to go.
--
Jim in NC

Jim

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes
the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never
got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

As Dudley said and I agree, civilian pilots flying the '51 should not
attempt formation landings. Their life and the bird are too precious.
Confed Air Force also say the same thing per Dudley.

On the "A" model of second bird. Did someone put an allison engine in
it? Did it have a bird cage or bubble?

I hope everyone realizes that we were not there and are making
comments from the little data available.

On the word section, Element is also used. I think Section came from
the Brits??????. Both are two planes. Four birds are a flight composed
of two elements. Leader and his wing man are #1 & #2. On the other
side matching #2 is #3 and on his wing is #4.

If the flight goes into echelon, then #3 moves out from close
formation with #1 and #2 moves under #1 over to the other side and
flight is then #1,#2,#3 & #4. This formation is normally used so that
each bird can break out behind the smaller numbered bird into the
landing pattern. #4 is tail end charlie )

This leads to another War Story. One time I was in a 48 ship echelon
of P-80's (A's & B's) and leader turned into the echelon to get lined
up for the pass over the field. I was about #20 and cut donut holes in
my drawers. What #48 did I don't know. The tail end got snapped like a
whip. They got back in some semblance of an echelon before the pass
over field I was told )

We then went and did some acrobatics. In the loops they were like a
cork screw with birds ahead coming down at the same time trailing
birds were going up starting their loop.

Later the leader doing some tight turns and ask #48 how he was doing
and #48 in a strained voice used to combat 'G's said "I'm doing OK Sir
" )

In my career in the AAC/USAF I made 3 ship formation take offs and
landings only during Basic training (on grass field) in the T-6 (we
were a experimental group that flew the T-6 in both Basic and
Advanced). After we proved the point they took the BT-13 out of basic
and every one flew the T-6.

In the formation landings you flew tight formation and could see the
ground behind the leader and you never knew when you were going to hit
the ground and then transition from flight to 'ground hog' ( We also
shot hurdle stages in the T-6. Would drag it over the rope with the
little flags so you could see it and just before going over you
chopped the throttle. As the bird started to sink you put in full up
elevator and after making the hard Navy landing from 15 feet with
brakes locked you stopped in 100-150 feet. Tires just skidded on the
grass so you didn't nose over.

We didn't know better in those days to not do some of the things we
would not do today.

Dudley. Where did you see the full important part of the pattern
through the accident? Can you give me the URL?

Keep um flying.

Big John

************************************************** *******************




On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 00:52:45 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote

It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall 51's
doing formation landings at OSH. They usually land with at least 200 feet
between them.

I can't figure why they felt the need to formation land, this time.

Regardless, condolences. A sad way to go.

Big John wrote:

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes
the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never
got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

I have done hundreds of formation landings in P-51s. Those two at Oshkosh
must have been total losers to crash doing something so simple.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Big John wrote:

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings.
Sometimes the birds got close together after touch down but the wing
man never got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

I have done hundreds of formation landings in P-51s. Those two at
Oshkosh must have been total losers to crash doing something so
simple.

Don't we have enough bull**** floating around here without a fake troll
trolling the troll????

"flypaper" wrote in news:273ri.106177$wG2.51389
@newsfe17.lga:

Mxsmanic wrote:
Big John wrote:

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings.
Sometimes the birds got close together after touch down but the wing
man never got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

I have done hundreds of formation landings in P-51s. Those two at
Oshkosh must have been total losers to crash doing something so
simple.

Don't we have enough bull**** floating around here without a fake troll
trolling the troll????




Apparently not


Bertie

mxsmanic

Probably should have used a better set of words.

Formation landings in the 51 is a high risk operation. It can be done
with two very experienced pilots with a good briefing on who does what
when and practice.

Did you land wings over lapped in tight formation or spread out where
an overrun would not hit the lead ship?

Did both ships make wheel landings or three point landings? Or lead
wheel and wing three point?

There is less margin for error in the tail wheel 51 than the nose
wheel birds. With the nose wheel you can tromp hard on the brakes to
prevent over running.

Have a nice day.

Big John





On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:09:18 +0200 (CEST), Mxsmanic
wrote:

Big John wrote:

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes
the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never
got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

I have done hundreds of formation landings in P-51s. Those two at Oshkosh
must have been total losers to crash doing something so simple.

Big John wrote:

mxsmanic

Probably should have used a better set of words.

You are correct. I should not have called them "losers", I should have
called them "idiots". Landing a P-51 in formation is extremely easy. They
should not have been even allowed to fly aircraft that rare if they
couldn't fly any better than that. I could have done that landing in my
sleep. In fact, I frequently *do*.

Mxsmanic

Where did you fly the 51? What AAC organization and theater?

Or did you fly with a Guard unit (which one) after the war?

What power setting did lead hold on final so wing could stay in
formation?

Interested in your replies to these technical questions I have posed.

Big John
************************************************** *



On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:09:18 +0200 (CEST), Mxsmanic
wrote:

Big John wrote:

In my 650 hours in the bird, I never saw formation landings. Sometimes
the birds got close together after touch down but the wing man never
got up into a formation position or passed the ship ahead.

I have done hundreds of formation landings in P-51s. Those two at Oshkosh
must have been total losers to crash doing something so simple.