Electrically Powered Ultralight Aircraft

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:13:55 -0400, Dana M. Hague
d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net wrote in
:

On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:58:07 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

If a 14 HP electric propulsion system weighing 46 lbs could be
constructed, apparently it would permit the use of PPGs by pilots up
to 180 lbs.

A PPG is a LOT more efficient than a powered parachute (PPC), but
still far less efficient than a rigid wing. Still, several electric
PPG's have been flown. The primary goal here is noise and vibration
reduction, a worthy goal when the engine is strapped to the pilot's
back.

The major problem is the weight of the batteries, still far heavier
than gasoline. Also the lithium polymer batteries used are still
quite expensive (over $10,000 for enough for a half hour flight) and
somewhat dangerous (sort them out and they can explode!)

-Dana

That's interesting information. Thank you.


It sounds like you have quite a bit of experience in this area. Are
you able to provide links to any forums or web sites related to this
topic?

Are
you able to provide links to any forums or web sites related to this


Check this out: http://www.calcars.org/news-archive.html

David Johnson

On Aug 10, 5:12 pm, Dave wrote:
Are

you able to provide links to any forums or web sites related to this

Check this out:http://www.calcars.org/news-archive.html

David Johnson

Lithium Polymer batteries are widely used in RC planes, cars, etc and
are known to be potentially dangerous. Most runaway fires occur during
charging but it has also occurred to a lessor degree during discharge
and even storage. Vented charging safety bags are recommended for this
reason. There is a video on this link that shows the explosive power
of small LiPo's. Consider the size differance of these batteries to
the one hung under the trike in one of the first posts or those that
could be installed in the wings of a sailplane.
http://www.liposack.com/video.html

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 06:59:02 -0700, wrote in
.com:


Lithium Polymer batteries are widely used in RC planes, cars, etc and
are known to be potentially dangerous. Most runaway fires occur during
charging but it has also occurred to a lessor degree during discharge
and even storage.

I would assume that the source of these Li-ion Polymer battery fires
is excessive electrical current flowing through the battery either
from too high a charging rate, too high a discharge rate, or a short
internal (as in the case of the Sony laptop cells) or external, or
being over charged. Perhaps it would be prudent to install a circuit
breaker of fuse to prevent too high a current and a timer to
disconnect a forgotten charger.

Vented charging safety bags are recommended for this
reason. There is a video on this link that shows the explosive power
of small LiPo's. Consider the size differance of these batteries to
the one hung under the trike in one of the first posts or those that
could be installed in the wings of a sailplane.
http://www.liposack.com/video.html

Thank you for the link. It is spectacular.


Here are some links relevant to the Sony Lithium laptop battery
recall:

Story: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=32550
http://news.com.com/Dell+takes+heat+...3-6105828.html

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6...lated&search=#

Explanation of cause:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4660-10165_7-6625980.html
http://www.prnewstoday.com/release.h...H05424082006-1
The recall arises because, on rare occasions, microscopic metal
particles in the recalled battery cells may come into contact with
other parts of the battery cell, leading to a short circuit within the
cell. Typically, a battery pack will simply power off when a cell
short circuit occurs. However, under certain rare conditions, an
internal short circuit may lead to cell overheating and potentially
flames. The potential for this to occur can be affected by variations
in the system configurations found in different notebook computers.

The thing that strikes me most in this thread is that so many people
just don't seem to understand...

1) weight

2) power

3) scale

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:35:25 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

I would assume that the source of these Li-ion Polymer battery fires
is excessive electrical current flowing through the battery either
from too high a charging rate, too high a discharge rate, or a short
internal (as in the case of the Sony laptop cells) or external, or
being over charged. Perhaps it would be prudent to install a circuit
breaker of fuse to prevent too high a current and a timer to
disconnect a forgotten charger.

I imagine the root of the problem is very low internal resistance
which, while making them very efficient, also allows the current to
"run away". Good circuit design can alleviate many of the issues, but
safety if the batteries are damaged in a crash is still an issue.

-Dana
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"Dana M. Hague" d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:35:25 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

I would assume that the source of these Li-ion Polymer battery fires
is excessive electrical current flowing through the battery either
from too high a charging rate, too high a discharge rate, or a short
internal (as in the case of the Sony laptop cells) or external, or
being over charged. Perhaps it would be prudent to install a circuit
breaker of fuse to prevent too high a current and a timer to
disconnect a forgotten charger.

I imagine the root of the problem is very low internal resistance
which, while making them very efficient, also allows the current to
"run away". Good circuit design can alleviate many of the issues, but
safety if the batteries are damaged in a crash is still an issue.

-Dana
--

Any battery chemistry, including lead-acid, can overheat with excess
charging current - usually to the detriment of the battery and whatever it
is in at the time. All can do damage if they are shorted. The problem with
the first generation lithium cells was the chemistry released oxygen when
overheated which combined with the flammable lithium made an incendiary
bomb.

The newest lithium-nanophosphate cells do not release oxygen and thus do not
burn or explode although they can be damaged by overcharging. Cells made by
A123 Systems, Saft, Valence and others are more than safe enough for use in
aircraft or cars. They have a little less energy capacity than the old
chemistry but they make up for it with fast charging and long life. They
can typically manage a 20C discharge rate without harm - that's 200 amps for
a 10 AH battery. Admittedly, you don't want to short that.

Bill Daniels

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:39:44 -0400, Dana M. Hague
d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net wrote in
:

safety if the batteries are damaged in a crash is still an issue.

I would think the hazard somewhat less than gasoline.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:39:44 -0400, Dana M. Hague
d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net wrote in
:

safety if the batteries are damaged in a crash is still an issue.

I would think the hazard somewhat less than gasoline.

The battery can produce it's own ignition source.

Please keep in mind that there are many lithium ion and lithium polymer
chemstries. It isn't too informative to just say "Lithium Polymer" or
Lithium Ion" without stating the precise chemistry. Further, chemistries
are changing almost daily. Many are proprietary. There's no such thing as
a "standard" lithium battery chemistry.

Valence, Saft and A123 Systems use chemistries that are far safer than the
relatively inexpensive Korean made model airplane batteries - safer than the
typical laptop or cell phone battery which are spec'd mainly on price.

Interestingly, the safest chemistries in the latest cells also offer faster
charging, greater energy density and will endure a FAR greater number of
charge cycles. They're also potentially cheaper.

I've already made a cell holder for A123 Systems "A1" cells. That's the
lithium phosphate nano cathode one used in 36V DeWalt power tools. You can
buy a couple of new DeWalt 36V power packs for $50 or so on Ebay. Then,
dismantle the pack to retrieve the individual cells. My pack will be 13.8
volts and 11AH weighing 3 pounds. It will be the same size as a 7AH 12V SLA
but weigh less than half as much.

Bill Daniels

Some Lithium cells can suffer thermal runaway and fire. Others are
extremely
wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 10, 5:12 pm, Dave wrote:
Are

you able to provide links to any forums or web sites related to this

Check this out:http://www.calcars.org/news-archive.html

David Johnson

Lithium Polymer batteries are widely used in RC planes, cars, etc and
are known to be potentially dangerous. Most runaway fires occur during
charging but it has also occurred to a lessor degree during discharge
and even storage. Vented charging safety bags are recommended for this
reason. There is a video on this link that shows the explosive power
of small LiPo's. Consider the size differance of these batteries to
the one hung under the trike in one of the first posts or those that
could be installed in the wings of a sailplane.
http://www.liposack.com/video.html