B-52 Re-engining?

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

The pilot flying keeps his feet on the rudder
pedals when hand-flying the aircraft.

An unsafe practice, for modern airliners.

Why does Boeing and the FAA advocate such an "unsafe practice," then?

You need to know how to fly the airplane when it is broke. I think
simulator time would be a much better place to play "hand fly the airplane"
than during revenue.

Well, as usual, your thinking is misguided, at best. Hand flying an airplane is
a skill that cannot be learned and kept current via a simulator session every 6
or 12 months.


No, use of the rudder is explicity unsafe.

It's Ex-Lax time! You're so full of crap, it's taken over your brain! Use
of rudder is absolutely required for crosswind takeoffs and landings, else the
airplane will run off the side of the runway. Seldom will an airplane track
absolutely straight down the centerline even with no wind or a direct
headwind -- on crowned runways especially!

Sure, but then you need to leave the rudder alone. There are exceptions to
using the rudder, but in the general case, a modern airliner breaks when the
operator panics while using the rudder. (ie A-300 USAir 427)

In the general case, the operator does not panic while using the rudder. Your
citation is an exception to the general case even if your assessment of panic
were accurate in the situation.


BTW, I have checked the 747-400 FHB, and turn coordination is indeed a function
of the yaw damper. I had overlooked that detail, since the spoilers tend to
assist in that same function.

OTOH, the rest of your generalizations regarding [non]use of the rudders are
still BS.

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
...
"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

The pilot flying keeps his feet on the rudder
pedals when hand-flying the aircraft.

An unsafe practice, for modern airliners.

Why does Boeing and the FAA advocate such an "unsafe practice," then?

You need to know how to fly the airplane when it is broke. I think
simulator time would be a much better place to play "hand fly the
airplane"
than during revenue.

Well, as usual, your thinking is misguided, at best. Hand flying an
airplane is
a skill that cannot be learned and kept current via a simulator session
every 6
or 12 months.



No, use of the rudder is explicity unsafe.

It's Ex-Lax time! You're so full of crap, it's taken over your brain!
Use
of rudder is absolutely required for crosswind takeoffs and landings, else
the
airplane will run off the side of the runway. Seldom will an airplane
track
absolutely straight down the centerline even with no wind or a direct
headwind -- on crowned runways especially!

Sure, but then you need to leave the rudder alone. There are exceptions
to
using the rudder, but in the general case, a modern airliner breaks when
the
operator panics while using the rudder. (ie A-300 USAir 427)

In the general case, the operator does not panic while using the rudder.
Your
citation is an exception to the general case even if your assessment of
panic
were accurate in the situation.

The point being that a rudder has some tendancy to reverse in turbulance and
I have provided you with two cases of operators panicing, when operating
under those conditions. (as determined by the administrator) It is my
opinion that the rudder outght not to fall off, but the manufacturer's have
countered that the operator ought not to be using the rudder in those
conditions at all.

BTW, I have checked the 747-400 FHB, and turn coordination is indeed a
function
of the yaw damper. I had overlooked that detail, since the spoilers tend
to
assist in that same function.

Impressive Weiss, but a little late after you have been such a prick. The
707 is a much better study in spoiler deployment for YAW cancellation and
probably coser to the B-52H configurtion.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

The point being that a rudder has some tendancy to reverse in turbulance and
I have provided you with two cases of operators panicing, when operating
under those conditions. (as determined by the administrator)

Two cases in decades and millions of flight hours hardly presents a "general
case"!

Further, you have not shown any indication of panic on the part of any pilot.
You noted earlier that some pilots have been TAUGHT to use a significant amount
of rudder in circumstances such as those encountered by US 427. Such use of
rudder would have been reaction based on training, not on panic.


BTW, I have checked the 747-400 FHB, and turn coordination is indeed a
function of the yaw damper. I had overlooked that detail, since the spoilers
tend to assist in that same function.

Impressive Weiss, but a little late after you have been such a prick. The
707 is a much better study in spoiler deployment for YAW cancellation and
probably coser to the B-52H configurtion.

Late for what? Perhaps the only thing that's late is your period...

Hmmm... It appears the only thing subject to a prick is that thin-skinned,
inflated balloon that is your ego.

Maybe the A-6 comes even closer to current B-52 configuration for roll
control -- use of spoilers only, with no ailerons. In the case of the A-6,
coordinated turns could be accomplished with little or no use of rudder.
However, faster roll rates -- often tactically/operationally advantageous --
were available with rudder use.

"John R Weiss" writes:


Yet another total BS Tarverism for the archives...

You expected otherwise??

The other difference between Tarbrain's posts and the dozens of swen
virus mails I am getting is, they make more sense.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"John R Weiss" writes:

Yet another total BS Tarverism for the archives...

You expected otherwise??

The other difference between Tarbrain's posts and the dozens of swen
virus mails I am getting is, they make more sense.

You know, it is almost too funny to have Lesher, aka Mr. Sam, the all time
usenet KoTM come by to insult me.

At least Weiss is among peers.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote:


"David Lesher" wrote in message
...
"John R Weiss" writes:

Yet another total BS Tarverism for the archives...

You expected otherwise??

The other difference between Tarbrain's posts and the dozens of swen
virus mails I am getting is, they make more sense.

You know, it is almost too funny to have Lesher, aka Mr. Sam, the all time
usenet KoTM come by to insult me.

At least Weiss is among peers.

John's just having his fun with you guys you know...an aside
here, WRT John W's post. He's just risen 'another' notch in my
view when he corrected himself wrt the yaw damper providing
assistance in turns. One can't help but admire the integrity it
requires to admit even that slight error when arguing with JT.
--

-Gord.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...


John's just having his fun with you guys you know...an aside
here, WRT John W's post. He's just risen 'another' notch in my
view when he corrected himself wrt the yaw damper providing
assistance in turns. One can't help but admire the integrity it
requires to admit even that slight error when arguing with JT.

Weiss only comes here to be an unsufferable prick. The whole idea is one
cooked up at ALPA and posted on their website. It is a way to blow off
steam from a job, that includes much ass kissing. It is a good thing that
Weiss was able to think and then retract his rediculess assertion.

"Gord Beaman" wrote...

WRT John W's post. He's just risen 'another' notch in my
view when he corrected himself wrt the yaw damper providing
assistance in turns.

BTW, I watched from the jumpseat this morning on the approach into ICN (Incheon,
Korea). The yaw damper didn't do too good a job of coordinating turns -- saw a
consistent half-ball slip in the turns after established in the angle of bank.
Ball went back to center when wings were level.

BTW, I use the term "ball" here because virtually every pilot understands the
term in context. The 744 has an electronic slip indicator that we often refer
to the "sailboat" since it is a white oblong slip indicator under a white bank
angle pointer triangle on the Primary Flight Display.

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

" "Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...
That would be expected, but in newer airliners, the operator is not
really
supposed to even operate the rudder. That idea is of course only
filtering
down to pilots after the A-300 event at Rockaway.

Not so. The rudder is used to coordinate flight in modern airliners as
in
any airplane.

Sorry Darrel, but you are outdated.

Perhaps. But I am currently teaching flight simulator for the Boeing
Company which has produced some airliners. The use of rudders when
handflying aircraft is still taught. Not a lot of rudder. Just what is
necessary.

It just doesn't take nearly as much with a properly
functioning yaw damper.

Rudder is used to deliberately
un-coordinate the aircraft when taking off and landing with a crosswind.

No, use of the rudder is explicity unsafe.

Only if you have "Splaps" extended. Whoops. Using a Tarver term again. (or
was that Splats?)

"Darrell" wrote in message
news:zC0eb.5045$La.3520@fed1read02...
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

" "Tarver Engineering" wrote in message
...
That would be expected, but in newer airliners, the operator is not
really
supposed to even operate the rudder. That idea is of course only
filtering
down to pilots after the A-300 event at Rockaway.

Not so. The rudder is used to coordinate flight in modern airliners
as in
any airplane.

Sorry Darrel, but you are outdated.

Perhaps. But I am currently teaching flight simulator for the Boeing
Company which has produced some airliners. The use of rudders when
handflying aircraft is still taught. Not a lot of rudder. Just what is
necessary.

I say the simulator is where handflying should occur. As you are "teaching
flight simulator" (?) for Boeing, you should be aware of how AA's simulation
sylibus for the A-300 may have contributed to the Rockaway accident.

It just doesn't take nearly as much with a properly
functioning yaw damper.

Rudder is used to deliberately
un-coordinate the aircraft when taking off and landing with a
crosswind.

No, use of the rudder is explicity unsafe.

Only if you have "Splaps" extended. Whoops. Using a Tarver term again.
(or
was that Splats?)

In fact, using spoiler flaps, as opposed to spoilers as speed brakes only,
is the means through which the rudder is reduced in size for both the KC-135
and the B-52H. Current models of civilian two engine aircraft have been
designed away from that notion, due to engine out requirements. Keep in
mind that this is a military group, not bound by CFR14 legalese, Schmidt.